Waterfront contracts come in over budget

Discipher says:

Watefront?

c'mon it's the headline

8/30/2010 3:08:26 PM

TBDR says:

thats now $5 million in overruns... this deal gets worse every day... and I was a supporter of the project.
*facepalm*

8/30/2010 3:08:56 PM

Tannoy says:

wow its the hospital all over again...

8/30/2010 3:32:28 PM

advocate says:

You guys should note that in both situations of costs overrun, the City has tried to negotiate to lower those costs.

Of course, that does not give you something to complain about.

8/30/2010 3:41:00 PM

tsb says:

When was the cost figured, and how has the cost of providing those services in the construction industry changed, with inflation, increased demand and so on?

8/30/2010 4:14:21 PM

windphart says:

tsb, inflation's gone up, but not that much. Not enough to double the costs. Someone in administration needs new batteries for their calculator. How do you screw something up like this?

8/30/2010 4:31:39 PM

Jaded says:

Oh gee, I'm so surprised.

No, wait. I'm not.

8/30/2010 5:05:00 PM

advocate says:

I used to work for a different municipality a few years back. You had reputable engineers and architects price things out and even through in a contingency. But sometimes costs were still overrun. The City is not the group who actually prices these out. It is the consultants.

Does the City choose the consultants? Of course, but it is on a tender system where cost tends to be a driver (but not the only driver). So what is the City to do? What do you guys recommend?

8/30/2010 5:13:00 PM

george2000 says:

Tannoy, whatever the cost of the hospital was, the city never had to pay more than the 25 million they agreed to. This is different. We are on the hook for any cost overruns here.

Advocate, here is what I recommend-----

That the city not tell me that we are going to get


XYZ exactly like is displayed for this amount of dollars.

Tell us we might get this for these dollars. These are our best estimates today, but that isn't what happens is it. We constantly hear this is what it is going to cost and what we end up with is either a higher cost or lower expectations.

So, if we are to maintain cost, what is cut, what is left out of the design and of the project that was presented, what percentage actually reaches completion.

No one is going to pick up this tab for us. We are on the hook, so either quality or quantity needs to be sacrificed, or the bill will be higher.

We have been told everything is on schedule repeatedly.

They still do not have blueprints for a condo for potential purchasers to review, meaning if I want to buy one, I don't know what one looks like

I just don't think this was a good deal for us.

time will tell i suppose

8/30/2010 5:38:23 PM

justathought says:

advocate, I don't think people on here are capable of producing productive thought on this site - everyone is too busy complaining.

Why not approach different city organizations to contribute to the landscaping...kind of like the Friendship Gardens, but instead of representing the different cultural backgrounds of Thunder Bay, have each group contribute and place signs (or plaques) with the organization's name and information about what they offer... Just a thought, that way some of the cost could be absorbed by community groups, and more information about the groups would be available to the public.

8/30/2010 6:08:46 PM

collie says:

Is ANYONE surprised???????

Look who is doing the work!!!!!!
Anyone who says this is OKAY something is wrong with your idea of just work and budgeting. This is the consistant problem with taking the LOWEST bidder in the first place! Should have gone with the middle bid.

8/30/2010 6:28:19 PM

kdawg says:

Since this is a make work govenrment spending project that your kids will be paying for and must be completed in an unrealistic time frame, the result is nothing short of great duress for all involved on the project. I am not envying Katherine Dugmore at this point.

I can imagine there are so many gaps in information in the tender documents that the bidders had no choice but to pad the price to avoid risk. Not only that, I can imagine that the scope of work is so non-conventional in almost every detail that the bidders had no choice but to up the prices.

Note the complexities or the property fence (as you drive by). Did someone make a killing on that fence or did they loose their shirt. I wonder.

Furthermore we are in the prime construction season that is running almost entirely on steroids (free money from the FED or so we think).

Chances are that contractors can take or leave this work and it will make little difference to them so what we get is a market price that is driven by the market. It is what it is.

Unfortunately the current overruns and soon to be upcoming overruns are the wages of our sins as a society. There is no blaming any cost consultant for this one.

Needs and wants are about to come into sharp focus very soon. But whatever gets cut out of the scope, 99% of Thunder Bay won't even notice and that's because the little frills and perks are irrelevant to what is important to this City. Totally irrelevant.

8/30/2010 7:14:34 PM

panzerIV says:

Has anyone come to the conclusion that local contractors are raising the costs to make more money for themselves. Theyre services are stretched thin and if you want them your going to pay a premium for it, stupid conservatives at there march 31st. We aren't getting our bang for the buck because companies know we have to pay the money.

8/30/2010 7:24:10 PM

karcat says:

anything that this city does never comes in on there budget , that is why we need a new mayor , council and some new city staff who
the value of working a complete shift with
out over budgeting the taxpayer, at least be
honest in your jobs , ty

8/30/2010 8:17:42 PM

Me n My Opinion says:

Karcat (and everyone else who make this same comment over and over), do you know for certain that everything the city does comes in over budget? Or is it that nobody wants to read about the projects that are on budget, so all we ever hear from the media are the projects that are over? I don't know the answer to this, just throwing it out there.

8/30/2010 9:56:02 PM

nvjgu says:

Figgers is anybody suprized all I see is people doing nothing when I go there , how could it be over budget it dosn't seam like anything has been done there . whatever it is that there doing . Expressway is the same story wish I had a job where I could just stand there .

8/30/2010 10:06:56 PM

psmith says:

Not a surprise. EVERY part of this project is coming in over budget. Because the Mayor and certain councilors wanted this pet project to be part of their "legacy" they pushed it any way they could, even over the objections of (some) citizens. They deliberately low-balled the cost estimates to make it more acceptable to people. They knew once you started the project, there's no stopping it if goes over budget.

"Heck, we spent $60 million of taxpayer money so far, too bad it will cost another $35 million over budget. But we've gotta spend it - gotta finish the project!"

If they told everyone the true cost at the beginning, not so many people would have been gung-ho for it. And they knew that.

8/30/2010 10:19:07 PM

thepawn says:

Advocate has a point. Ms. Dugmore and her team are reacting quickly to cost over-runs and are trying to bring the project in on budget. Give her some credit.

8/30/2010 10:25:25 PM

karcat says:

to me & my opinion..
Cost overrun?? well look at our great water
at bearpoint, way over budget , the auditorium
after 2--3 yrs had to be worked on by not being done rite also over budget on our nice new city hall and do you think this council and mayor have been honest with the public ??
its our tax money they love to spend but dont dare question them on it , ok & ty PS still have a feeling that someone got to the open line show we had so we couldnt question any councillors or mayor knowing the backlash this would have caused , think about it ??

8/30/2010 10:49:26 PM

RelaxingInMurillo says:

Why is this always like a broken record..(I guess we'll have to stop using the broken record thing soon.. kids wont know what the heck?..)

Something gets proposed. Council and city admin admit that its just too complex for them to nail down the cost, so they hire a well paid consultant team. The wise consultants carefully calculate things. The project gets the nod and before ya know it, its over budget !!
I think there should be some kind of system where you can come back to the consultants and force them to provide evidence as to why this has gone overbudget. Is it poor consulting ? Is it changes made to the original plan ? Is the contractor doing some monkey biz ?
Not that it would solve the overbudget.. but at least the finger might be pointing the right way.

8/30/2010 11:10:34 PM

RBosch says:

OK - hot off the press - confirmed at Council Meeting tonight. There have been 9 tenders so far - 4 are over budget, but 3 are within acceptable limits and the 4th is the one that is currently double the estimate and therefore is being reviewed - 4 are on budget and 1 is under budget.

So, to psmith, nvjgu and particularly karcat, it would appear your comments are a little off base, as always.

8/31/2010 1:06:40 AM

panzerIV says:

psmith. You've only heard about the cost overrun tenders. Since the start they have awarded like 14 tenders and 2 were majorly over budget. They took them off the table to make the cost overruns less or to where the budget was allocated for them.

There is a whole wake of factors making this project more expensive.

Supply and Demand - Not a Large supply but a big demand. Construction companies are working to max capacity and if you want there workers your going to pay a premium.

HST - construction for bathrooms, housing additions and waterfront projects are more expensive.

Inflation - The costs were projected in 2007 and there are a number of factors that caused the prices to rise.

March 31st, 2011 - If we dont complete this project by then we lose the federal stimulus money. This means that we have a project half completed where we have to dish out 40 million more. Construction companies know this, look at the library 25% over, Tim commisso stated:

"about 200,000 of that might be padding by the construction company and not related to real costs".

With the conservative decision to have a deadline date to use it or lose it, cities across Canada are having to reach into there coffers to pay the premium to these companies. It's really quite a shame.

8/31/2010 7:50:31 AM

thepawn says:

Panzer: The whole purpose of the stimulus package by the Conservatives was a short but intense shot in the arm of the Canadian economy. They wanted to avoid a longer drawn out stimulus which would have had less effect on the GDP.

You sound like a Liberal, but you have to give the Tories some credit here. Canada has avoided the economic disasters that all other G-7 countries are going through. At the same time the deficit is falling faster than anticipated. I call that a win win.

I suspect that under the pressure of a Fall Federal election we will get that extension. Particularly if the Liberal/NDP party wins the election.
But if you think that construction costs will fall as a result, you would be mistaken.

8/31/2010 8:56:37 AM

TBDR says:

Panzer, great idea to try making excuses, but a few problems...

Inflation: has only risen a couple percent since 07, and any intelligent organization plans for inflationary gap ahead of time.

HST: Was known about over a year ago and only accounts for items that weren't already PST applicable. Even then you're only talking an 8% increase at max.

The Supply/Demand argument is ridiculous in this instance. There is only average demand right now, and construction companies are not at capacity. Do your homework... dont just make things up.

Stimulus: Don't buy it. Every community that has ever applied for those stimulus dollars knew about that catch when they applied. Most didn't decide to apply it to a massive waterfront overhaul spanning several years. We knew exactly what we were getting into when we applied for those dollars, and we knew the terms of the deal. If we can't make it work then its our fault not the federal government.

8/31/2010 10:14:31 AM

pieislandrefugee says:

I think this type of gross incompetence can only be rectified by Ms Dugmore's resigination.

A project manager thats missed the mark 8 out of 9 times is not an acceptable display of competency. Taxpayers cannot afford to reward this inability to perform the tasks under her charge.

Maybe if we start sacrificing some of these obviously inept public servants, we can start to get people who will perform their duties properly?

8/31/2010 10:18:21 AM

Rick says:

To: george2000

Sure the city never had to pay more than the 25 million they agreed to, but you the taxpayer was still on the hook for the huge cost overruns.

8/31/2010 11:25:44 AM

lori says:

I think some of the comments below suggesting that many of these projects come over budget are accurate, many do.

BUT

That is not what we were told. We were told this is how much money Thunder Bay was going to spend, but we spent a great deal getting the property ready before these contracts were bid.

That means we have done a great deal of work with the possibility of either not moving forward, or moving foward in a less fashion than was proposed.

Is that really an effective way of doing business.

This project was to unite the community. It may do just the opposite.

8/31/2010 11:37:21 AM

tsb says:

Municipal governments get the money they pay on sales taxes back in rebates, so the cost of HST, GST or PST isn't much of an issue.

8/31/2010 11:41:20 AM

Whodo says:

I remember K Dugmore saying it was her job to keep this project on Budget.
Yes, I agree a resignation is in order.

This is far from the 1st or the last lie we will hear from this women. I would like to think her time has come.

This is just the tip of the ice berg...

We are in trouble deep.

If I remember correctly 7000 people signed a petition, the largest in our city to stop this RE-development! Senseless waste of OUR TAXES.

This is the tip of the ice berg.
Shame, shame on all of you who supported this project, as I sit here unable to get into 'Homes For The Aged'

8/31/2010 12:07:35 PM

Centrist says:

I believe resignation is the first word negative people learn. Sad really.

8/31/2010 3:00:50 PM

pieislandrefugee says:

Acting responsibly and demanding competency and accountability is not "negative" by even the most twisted up liberal mentality.

Blindly marching forward, ignoring reality and the ramifications of all the amounting failures is a very big negative.

8/31/2010 4:06:28 PM

sam says:

Like someone has already mentioned it may be a grave error using stimulus funds for waterfront development. Wasnt the city looking for federal money way before the stimulus money came available. Wasnt that the reason a private condo development in a public park was deemed necessary because the only way the feds would invest is if there was a private/public partnership. The city made it sound like the money was coming, and what came was stimulus money which was totally unexpected and the city jumped all over it. And the stimulus money
does not have the requirement that a private partner be involved.

It is surprising to me that no one on city council asked this simple questio: If the project is not completed by the deadline date, what is the worst case scenario?

8/31/2010 6:20:01 PM

george2000 says:

rick in your years of construction

how many jobs came in on time and on budget.

probably very few if any. that is just not the norm.

and while you are correct as a taxpayer we had to pay more, as a city taxpayer we paid 25 million

the other 10 million people in ontario each paid a share of the overrun.

8/31/2010 6:46:41 PM

glock9 says:

Ahhh scrap the waterfront already all we need is a sandy beach with a nightclub

8/31/2010 8:41:39 PM

panzerIV says:

sam, people always look at the worst case scenario. With this 2011 deadline up to 60% of the projects are expected they wont be completed. (that's the worst case scenario). The best was 700 million in construction money leaves the cities and they are forced to pay them. This deadline should be moved back a year, to continue the stimulus.

I believe that the public buildings will be completed before that time, there is a large amount of landscaping tho and that can only be done in certain times. Hope for the best and fear the worst

9/1/2010 9:07:30 AM

storm says:

I remember K Dugmore saying it was her job to keep this project on Budget.
Yes, I ALSO agree a resignation is in order!!
This woman can swing a load of dung faster than any circus performer! Watch out for further cover ups, excuses, and lies.
BRING ON A NEW COUNCIL PLEASE BEFORE WE ARE TOO DEEP IN yet more DUNG AND Cant be saved!!

9/1/2010 10:12:55 AM

sam says:

You would think the feds would have mercy on us and others and extend the deadline, but we have to keep in mind the nature of this funding, if the feds feel that the economy has been sufficiently stimulated by march 31, 2011 the deadline will not be extended, then we are holding the bag, so the money that the city was saving up for the multiplex will have to used for the waterfront, bye bye new multiplex.

9/1/2010 11:11:41 AM

myopic not foolish says:

"I believe resignation is the first word negative people learn. Sad really".

I believe negative is the first word people learn when someone disagrees with them. Sad really.

9/1/2010 1:25:41 PM

yqtyqt says:

Sam:

If the feds feel mercy for TBay, they will have to have mercy on every municipality across the nation. The deadline was well understood by all applicants. As a matter of fact, I understand that a cash flow projection was required as part of the application process. Projects were to be construction ready and do-able by a specific date.

The fact that the contractors are maxed out in their capacity to complete the projects indicates that the "anticipated" benefits have been reached. In terms of Mr Commisso's comments that contractors are now "profit taking" would indicate that federal, provincial and municipal dollars are now lining the pockets of these businessmen. It's time to turn the gravey taps off and let the private sector stimulate the economy with their new found money. Unless of course, you're in favour of further lining the contractors pockets.

As far of the multiplex is concerned, the time is near that the two multi-millionaires, Leblanc and McCullough showed some money to the City and commitment to the project. Ante up or shut up. Cash talks, BS walks. Why should already over-burdened taxpayers (at all levels) be burdened with this dream. When they are already facing massive debt charges over the next generation.

9/1/2010 1:56:11 PM

pieislandrefugee says:

dont blame the feds for putting the rules in place sam.

blame those who couldnt and refused to follow them.

9/1/2010 2:09:07 PM

Whodo says:

Did I hear someone mention multiplex, we can not afford at this time.
I recall some 8 months back Mr Commisso saying just that... then 4 or so months later Our Present Mayor together with Mr Commisso started talking like we could. Then they quickly proceeded to hold Public Open Houses to show how much they care about Public Consultation, which was pretty much a farce, I have an idea the Mayor has had the location for this Multiplex picked out for some time.

How about seeing Real Capitalism at work, Build it with private dollars, does that ever happen? Cough up, all you smooth talking money men. I would not want to see anymore government funding $$$ go to something of this nature, after the wasteful dollars we spent to FILL In LAKE SUPERIOR. If these high rollers want it, pay for it.

Maybe, then, we will see contracts on budget, maybe when the source is Private Dollars someone with sense would be better at the job watching the BOTTOM LINE.

9/2/2010 10:18:40 AM

Rick says:

Great Post Whodo

Un-fortunately The Wolf and lori and a few others would not be able to fully grasp this concept.

They live by the old now I just want more entitlements and to suck on the Government teat....Guess that I'm a Liberal now...

9/3/2010 11:19:53 AM