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2010-08-31 at 02:16

Tender troubles

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
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Only one of nine awarded tenders for the waterfront development project has received no additional changes to its budget, says the project manager.

A tender for work on land north of Pier 3 was set to be awarded during Monday’s council meeting, but has since been withdrawn after the lowest bid came in almost double the $1 million budgeted cost.

Project Manager Katherine Dugmore told council that her staff would now look at ways to reduce the cost.

"What I am trying to do is looking for ways to keep our costs down," Dugmore said. "We’re still going through all the individual tenders, line by line and trying to figure out where the differences are."

Council did award one tender but not without some revisions.

Wilco Contractors Inc. received approval for the contract but with a reduction of about $514,000 to the original bid of $2,871,502. Council approved the contract after they eliminated Pier 1 improvements, including the alternate walk way design and the alternate barrier gate system.

The city has awarded a total of nine contracts for the Prince Arthur’s Landing project; excluding the above-mentioned one, four have come back over budget, and four returned on budget.

Only the tender that dealt with the electrical servicing and the sewage pumping station went ahead without any revisions, she said.

Prince Arthur’s Landing received a large share of its funding through the federal stimulus spending program, but work must be susbstantially complete by March 31, 2011 in order to claim it.

Dugmore said working with a "compressed schedule" increases the risk of additional costs and as they wrapped up stage one, the project is two- thirds started.

However, City Manager Tim Commisso said municipalities were ultimately responsible for the project if they didn’t meet their deadlines to get all the tenders approved.

"I think the reality of it is that there is $700 million in projects (across the country) that are still out there and are at risk of not meeting that deadline," Commisso said. "I think what we’re seeing is a recognition that municipalities are kind of holding the bag and they run the risk by not getting their tenders in. The Ontario Premier recognizes that but I haven’t seen anything on the federal level."

Commisso said although the provincial and federal governments are talking about project referrals it didn’t mean that the city should rely on that as an option.

Also on Monday, council deferred a series of changes that would revamp its zoning by-law. City planners have repeatedly said the new zoning by-law will make it easier for developers and residents in the city to build.
The draft by-law first came before council in June before city planners told administration to consult with more stakeholders after some businesses and developers complained.

Since that meeting, the city planning division has met with those concerned to refine the by-law before it went before council on Monday.

"We have been working with individuals and the city solicitor to make revisions and to consider some of the comments to change the by-law," planning manager Leslie McEachern said on Monday. "One of the most significant changes to the document is that we did it electronically. The original 1987 by-law was done by pen and paper. Given the ability to develop the document electronically, we’re a whole lot more accurate."

However, some residents disagreed with what they said was not enough public input into the by-law revision process.

Peter Kuzyk, who lives on Oliver Road, said reviewing the document was like shooting a moving target. Kuzyk said the public did not receive enough time to review the documents properly as the draft by-law went through several revisions and updates.

Murray Chown, senior planner for Novatech engineering consultants, on the other hand praised the by-law as innovative by not reestablishing the same zoning policies.

After hearing both sides, council decided to give the public four weeks to review the by-law before making a decision.

However, with a municipal election scheduled for Oct. 25, councillors said they wanted the matter settled as soon as possible.

"We need to do this and make sure what we don’t do is leaving this up to the next council," Coun. Iain Angus said. "No one is going to be 100 per cent happy with the by-law. Most people in this community have jobs and families and they are not thinking of the individual zoning issues. We have a responsibility as the current council because we started it and now we have to finish it."
Council also passed several applications for rezoning including more parking-space for an apartment building on the corner of Mark Street and Arthur Street. The application requested an expansion of the parking lot for West Arthur Place Ltd by removing a city owned dwelling and garage.

Mark Smith, general manager for Development Services, said the area needed the parking space.

"Parking is a problem in this area," Smith said. "We are aware there are many concerns from residents about parking. I think people are looking for a close space on Mark Street instead of parking further away."

The application was unanimously approved. Click here to submit a letter to the editor.

Click here to report a typo or error

Tbnewswatch.com(45)

Comments

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The Wolf says:
Why does every little thing need to be reported on with this project?

Project of this size all go through the same tender overages and various other "hiccups" or bumps in the road but yet we do not get daily updated reports on this one.

Something tells me this web-site is anti waterfront, for more information see all the stories that spin Mr Hutt into a victim.
8/31/2010 8:26:53 AM
Peng says:
WOW
three juicy stories - water front, zoning bylaw, and poor planning by the city

Re poor planning

An apartment building needs paking

What a concept

Shouldnt that have been addressed when it was proposed, not after built?

Another City planning and development services bungle
They are in such a rushh to build they forget good plannung and commen sense

Look at the new courthouse
Similar situation - opps need more parking, didnt see that on coming
The bus terminal- need something while the original has been torn down

DUH-do we have planners on staff or not?
If so, let them plan.
8/31/2010 9:03:32 AM
TBDR says:
Wow, Wolf could you be any more of a sheep? Its probably being reported because people want to know! The project is already closing in on $4 MILLION over budget, and the real work hasn't even gotten going... also they still don't have a developer for the hotel/condos.
8/31/2010 10:00:28 AM
thepawn says:
Hey Wolf:
I realize that you have an undergraduate degree in economics, but in my books, a $ 1 Million dollar cost over-run in one small part of this waterfront project is news.

Further, the Waterfront project was and remains a contentious issue for TBAY residents, that makes it news worthy.

Finally, to suggest that Dougal media is in someway biased on this story is ludicrous. They have, and will continue to give both sides ample opportunity to express their positions.
8/31/2010 10:01:28 AM
sam says:
I think it is pretty clear from the city managers remarks that unless the feds extend the deadline for stimulus money spending, we are going to have a major problem along with a whole bunch of other municipalities in ontario. But I am pretty sure the province will find a way to pursuade the feds to extend the march deadline. Cross your fingers.
8/31/2010 10:13:17 AM
pieislandrefugee says:
total incompetence.

I think its fair that she resign from this position. We CANNOT afford to pay for cost overruns, or the total incompetence that failed to identify them in the first place.

How many of you can be so wrong and underperform in your jobs and still keep them?
8/31/2010 10:24:00 AM
jb says:
reduce costs on paper, then announce the actual overrun cost once work has begun.
8/31/2010 11:08:10 AM
Rick says:
Wow, with the comments posted by the economics professor, it sure questions the value of a University Degree.!

I wonder if the tuition paid is re-fundable.?
8/31/2010 11:28:44 AM
Pandora says:
Did this women not stake her job on the fact that SHE was going to keep this 'Project on Budget', We didn't believe you than KD and we don't believe you NOW.

Would you not think they would have had Pre-sold Condos and a Qualified Hotelier on board before starting this Grand Project at OUR expense?

Sounds to me like THEY destroyed a 1st class Marina and Park for a second rate (at best)Whatever we seemed to be able to afford ...

Here are some numbers for you folks who seem to think you know something about business, accounting or economics...

This City is (numbers from last spring)

OVER 200M in Debt

29M Annual to Service Debt

60M Borrowed for Roads

300M Needed for Water/Sewer

The whole bunch of them need to be Replaced...
From the Mayor, council, Administration including, Mark Smith and Katherine Dugmore.

So lets try and get out and VOTE, with every day we seem to have a better choice, keep it up.

8/31/2010 11:38:44 AM
Rick says:
Said it before and will post again, Ms.Dugmore simply does not have the experience for this position.

Her answering questions from city council and then Tim Commisso stepping in to correctly answer them on behalf of administration tells all.

You cannot go from over seeing a garden project in Toronto, working in the planning department and then to this position.

Sorry to say but it don;t work that way folks.!
8/31/2010 12:04:23 PM
hockeyday says:
When you tender 9 projects and only 1 is budgeted in the correct range, there is no doubt the people in the city have no clue what they're doing. When you hear some projects are a million off the going rate, heads should roll. What's the point of having high paid administrators guiding the planning process when they're living in LA LA land and out of touch with reality.
8/31/2010 12:20:35 PM
FernandoMartinez says:
Hobbs told me today that he wants to keep cost overruns in check by mandating that the developer be responsible for cost overruns. They estimate X dollars; the city pays X dollars. Anything more is their responsibility.

Remember Keith Hobbs isn't only focused on crime. Fiscal responsibility, lowering taxes, paying down the debt, and attracting industry/jobs (especially mining) is a huge priority for him.

Remember that on October 25th.
8/31/2010 1:17:50 PM
captain says:
I am not a fan of this project in any way but i find it hard to accept that Ms. Dugmore should be the one hung. She is following directions, she is not running the project.

She was hired by Mr. Petrie - he is gone.

So if she is not qualified, and I am not suggesting she is not, then he is the one responsible not her.

She is now working for Mr. Commisso but they are following the direction of City Council. Ultimately it is council who provides the direction based on the advice of administration.

If that advice is faulty, it is up to Council to find out, or to hold Admin responsible.

This project will cost far more than we were told it will and we will be the ones paying.

It is certainly a news worthy story.

Wolf I do agree with you often, but this story needs to be followed and reported the whole way. Too often stories aren't and you wouldn't want them to report at the end, that it came in 10 million over. People would be screaming that we didn't know.
8/31/2010 2:01:28 PM
Swirly-Q says:
I, too, am dissappointed in the discrepancies between estimates and bids. On the other hand, I am thankful that, unlike Ms Dugmore, I don't have a job in which I am subject to the criticism of 100,000 people... many of them uninformed and ignorant to the complexities of construction contract estimating.
8/31/2010 2:56:10 PM
pieislandrefugee says:
SwirlyQ, I dont believe its the public who are ignorant if you are placing the blame for this on them. The public understands estimates. We all know what they are. However, we all know when the estimate is off 100%, theres some serious problems.

Face it. She's the Project Manager. If she cant manage the project within the budget and cant control the actual cost vs. the actual estimates, then shes not doing her job. Theres no other way to sugar coat it for you.

Estimates are estimates. Anything outside of 10% differences are unacceptable. If that's not being adhered to, then it falls directly on the shoulders of the MANAGER for not being in direct control of the project.

Stop making excuses for incompetency. This is business, check your feelings at the door. She is being compensated monetarily for the high profile job that she agreed to perform so spare us the sob story.

NO EXCUSES!
8/31/2010 3:54:43 PM
The Wolf says:
Rick - this is part of your problem. You fail to comprehend what is being talked about or commented on. I never said this is a non issue nor did I say its not a concern. What I did say is this sort of thing goes on all the time with tenders and construction jobs. Its not news worthy and if any of you actually read the story for information instead of developing your nearsighted post you would of read that the city is looking into it to find out where its over and how they can get it back under or onto budget. Seems to me they are doing their jobs or at least trying to.

And yes Dougal Media is very biased and always has and always will be. Don't believe me, try to find one story that portrays the Marina development in a good light and as something positive.

And LOL at me being a "sheep", I am one of the few that actually think for myself and not what the media or government wants me to think.
8/31/2010 4:20:55 PM
advocate says:
Fernando, that sounds like a great idea on paper. In reality though, it scares tenders away. You scare the tenders away and you are left with the most expensive tenders.

Thus, costs will go up.
8/31/2010 5:12:31 PM
kdawg says:
Well now, a government spending project with unrealistic deadlines for completion, poor timing of the construction tender (peak construction period) and unconventional designs rushed out to tender leaving a lot to the imagination of the bidders I would suggest.

The results should be no surprise to anyone. And it’s not over by a long shot.

I think it is foolhardy however to try to blame an individual or a consultant for market prices during an unprecedented Federal fiscal spending spree that has every consultant and contractor buried in projects and deadlines.

These over runs are the wages of our sins for trying to spend record sums of uncollected tax money in a short period of time in exchange for highly questionable value and only added burden to infrastructure costs. What! we need to hire a zamboni driver for the ice pond? Can you $ay TaxeS?

It's a greed fest gone wrong.

The real invoice for all this Federal stupidity spending is coming to a theater near you.
And sooner than we think.

I say look out for 2011(batten down the hatches)

8/31/2010 6:35:28 PM
Swirly-Q says:
Pie Island, ironic that you tell me to "check your feelings at the door" when, clearly, your strong emotions have affected your reading comprehension.

I neither "blamed the public" nor made "excuses". Please re-read my post - I expressed disappointment with the bid/estimate discrepancy and thankfulness that I'm not the project manager. Somehow you felt that that warranted a five paragraph thesis in rebuttal.
8/31/2010 7:48:31 PM
Rick says:
Yo Fernando

Maybe you should explain to Hobbs that the city is the developer.!
The city simply hires the consultants, but in the end it is the Project manager-City Employed who is responsible.

If Hobbs is attempting to understand the construction industry, from the sounds of it he has a long way too go...laughable at best.!
8/31/2010 8:53:10 PM
Ed ITW says:
Why didn’t we hire some one with experience in tearing up a park and building hotels and condos?
8/31/2010 9:19:57 PM
kdawg says:
Well now, a government spending project with unrealistic deadlines for completion, poor timing of the construction tender (peak construction period) and unconventional designs rushed out to tender leaving a lot to the imagination of the bidders I would suggest.

The results should be no surprise to anyone. And it’s not over by a long shot.

I think it is foolhardy however to try to blame an individual or a consultant for market prices during an unprecedented Federal fiscal spending spree that has every consultant and contractor buried in projects and deadlines.

These over runs are the wages of our sins for trying to spend record sums of uncollected tax money in a short period of time in exchange for highly questionable value and only added burden to infrastructure costs. What! we need to hire a zamboni driver for the ice pond? Can you $ay TaxeS?

It's a greed fest gone wrong.

The real invoice for all this Federal stupidity spending is coming to a theater near you.
And sooner than we think.

I say look out for 2011(batten down the hatches)

8/31/2010 9:23:38 PM
FernandoMartinez says:
To advocate:

You are correct. The estimates would go up, but at least we would know the true costs of a project and there'd be transparency.

In this case, if the estimate is $1 million and the actual cost is $2 million, we would be told straight it up it would cost $2 million and only $2 million. Anything more than that would not be the City's responsibility - and it shouldn't. These construction companies are milking this city dry.
8/31/2010 11:02:28 PM
brooky says:
It's the nature of the beast. Construction projects never come in on budget. Ge used to it.
9/1/2010 1:33:24 AM
advocate says:
Fernando, that is first assuming that all projects go over budget. Keep in mind, we only hear about the ones that go over budget. Most stay on budget, many come under budget.

What probably would happen is right now you are getting someone submitting a bid for $1 million and it instead comes in at $1.3 million (hypothetically). And you get a competitive process with five companies submitting a bid. You put that clause in and you may not get a bidder. Or you may only get one bidder worth $3 million.
9/1/2010 7:24:21 AM
captain says:
kdawg, before you go blaming the gov't for this huge spending spree, blame the person really at fault,

you seem them every day in the mirror.

We were all screaming for stimulous money and please don't tell me you were the sane voice of reason.

Harper almost lost his job because the Liberals, NDP and Bloc were going to overthrow the gov't because he was ignoring the upcoming recession and he was not going to spend his way out.

The same in Ontario. All the opposition wanted money spent, they were screaming for it. Anyone who lost their job blamed the gov't, it didn't matter which one.

Editorials, news casts, everybody saying what is the gov't doing to help.

Our city council, spending 24 million of borrowed dollars to get additional funding for Marina Park. Everyone demanding infrastructure funds to smooth out the economic downturn.

Now, the holier than thou folks, it seems you are in this group, want to stand up and say see, look at the size of those deficits. This is what we are hearing from the same folks who wanted spending.

I find the whole thing disgusting.

I agree, some people thought stimulous spending was crazy, but there wasn't one politician that I know that was saying hey, let's not do this. The public would have strangled that politician. They gave us what we asked for.

In Thunder Bay at least, it has paid off huge dividends in terms of construction jobs, health jobs, bombardier and keeping our unemployment rate low. But it is not sustainable.

Not really connected to this topic, but I wanted to respond to your posting. people find it so easy to just say blame gov't. they never want to blame themselves.
9/1/2010 7:42:32 AM
SleepyGiant says:
I think everyone should realize that many (if not all) estimates were made before the buildings were even designed (therefore material used and new building code requirements were not taken into effect). That could explain a lot of the overrun.
9/1/2010 8:52:50 AM
panzerIV says:
Fernando, the solution is really simple.

When we receive a estimate for 1.2 million (2007). We add it too 1.8 million. We give ourselves room to work, the problem with estimators is they look at the cheapest number. Your never going to get the cheapest number unless the stars align. Adding more money on top would allow for over budgeting the estimate but still coming within the budgeted amount.

Pie, they're has been 9 tenders total. 4 were over budget and had been pulled to bring them back into where they were originally budgeted for. 4 were on budget and 1 was under.

How can you be calling for her head? She put out the tenders and receives what the industry gives her. She has taken things out to make the project come into line, so i say these things are out of her control.

The Wolf i agree with you but its not just dougall media, its media in general. Bad news attracts much more readership then good news. Its always been that way, why was there no news about all the tenders that came in on budget or the one that was under?
9/1/2010 9:02:31 AM
abetterTbay. says:
Let's look at the BIG picture, The waterfront development is playing an integral role in diversifying Thunder Bay's economy. Just look at what the Thunder Bay Regional Research Institute has brought to the city already. Tornado Medical Systems choose to be in the Whalen Building creating new professional jobs in Thunder Bay. If Rydholm, FOMP and company didn't delay the Waterfront Project with destroy tactics, everything would still be on schedule, including costs.
The CEDC has a plan, and it's working, it's time the citizens get behind this council to help make a better Thunder Bay!
9/1/2010 10:24:31 AM
ProDevelopment says:
The point everyone has missed is that the money hasn't been spent yet, nor is it about to anytime soon.
Dugmore & co, have recognized the tendering issue and are taking steps to rectify the problem. I think they've done their job. Resignation... Yeah right!
9/1/2010 12:46:28 PM
pieislandrefugee says:
Captain... dont you dare say "everybody" wanted stimulus spending.

Many, many, many people screamed NO to that. Our own PM did his best to not go down that path, but eventually caved into the lesser evil of doing something stupid and remaining in control, instead of just saying no, and being taken over by a coalition government which would have been headed up by a person who never even received one vote from the public.

Both options sucked, but I still would have said NO.

In an effort to make yourselves feel better youre trying to lump people into this twisted mess that has become of this stimulus spending to make it seem like we're all in the same boat. Thats not happening here.

We're in the same sea, but certainly not everyone is in that very boat.

Ive repeatedly said NO to spending and any increase in government and its oppressive control right here on this very site. So dont say we were all wrong, when theres been plenty of us who were right.

Now, lets dispense with the "diversifying" our economy nonsense thats parrot-ed around way too much like its some sort of wonderful thing, and realize that this project has done nothing and will do nothing to help 99.9% of the people in this city which is what stimulus spending was supposed to do. Thanks to city council and the idiots who supported them.

So, yes, the government messed up with its stimulus nonsense. This city, has messed it up even more by twisting the original intention and purpose of the money. The city, has made its bed with this project, and cant even seem to play by the rules of the spending spree that it was provided with.

How any of you still fail to realize the extent of this mismanaged, nonsense which has been created here is beyond me.

People who think going over budget and over the tendered amount by 100% is acceptable must be complete fools. Let me ask you this...when you take your car in for repairs, if they tell you the bill actually came in at 2 mil instead of 1 mil do you just lay down and accept it?

If your home renos came in at $500,000 instead of the $250,000 you were quoted do you just say "Oh well, thats how it goes?"

By the way, how many commenting here even are taxpayers???

and yes, Ms. Dugmore needs to resign and offer a public apology for her incompetency with our money. She's way over her head.
9/1/2010 1:15:23 PM
pieislandrefugee says:
Oh, by the way... how diversified is our economy when all the new construction and health care jobs are created or maintained with government money??

your only client is the government. Thats not diversified at all. Thats welfare to work.

Diversity isnt the answer. Unity is. North America was made into a financial powerhouse with unity. Not diversity. Diversity (a.k.a. division) will only serve to destroy this nation.

9/1/2010 1:29:20 PM
RBosch says:
Pie - do you have anything positive going on in your life? You make assinign statements continuously with nothing to back them up.

Your statement below:"If your home renos came in at $500,000 instead of the $250,000 you were quoted do you just say "Oh well, thats how it goes?"" is typical. What you portray as happening couldn't be any furher from the truth. When the tender (#8) came in at nearly twice the estimated value, it was NOT accepted, but rather, was removed from the process and is being reviewed to see why it is so. This has happened several other times throughout the tendering process and whether you believe it or not, is part of that same process. You think the woman should resign, for what reasonagain? She IS doing her job and doing it well, even though you may not think so. If and when changes to the tender (#8)are made and it DOES fall within accepted guidleines, I would expect an apology on this site, but I somehow do not really think it will occur from yourself, as you are one of the most negative thinkers I have encountered.
9/1/2010 4:05:39 PM
Whodo says:
At first glance this may not seem relevant, I believe it to be...One of the most accurate, independent and well researched reports done is by IMFC, Institute of Marriage and Family Canada. There indexing is about putting all the important family-friendly factors together into one place.

Thunder Bay placed a low 31 out of 33 cities.

In their conclusion the reason for Thunder Bay placing so low and citing our weaknesses:

Thunder Bay did poorly for low population growth, also a poor economic situation-- they have very high levels of dependence upon government.

High dependence on gov't funding is NOT a good thing!
9/1/2010 4:16:24 PM
captain says:
pieslandrefugee- are you kidding me.

let me rephrase slightly. Except for you, me and Bob on the corner, everyone else wanted stimulous spending. My goodness you are sensitive.

So tell me, how many anonymous letters to the editor did you send in saying don't spend that money. How many rally's did you organize, petitions did you start, or did you sit at your computer and write anonymous blogs. I am sure you called your representatives and said hey, we don't want that money.

And then, to top it off, your second one is even better.

You don't count these health care jobs as wealth, really.

Permanent, high paying new jobs in health care, people who buy homes, cars, clothes, eat at restaurants, buy t.v's, go to movies. That does not create wealth.

Construction for paving contracts being done in T.Bay instead of Owen Sound or Oshawa, so people are working, going to movies............

nope, that doesn't create wealth


Welfare to work. Go to the emergency with a heart attack and tell the nurses, doctors and specialists that they are just collecting welfare. Tell them you don't want the money here for the angioplasty, that is just welfare, it doesn't really count.

Tell the welfare recepients at Bombardier, the hundreds and hundreds now working that they are on welfare.

And you were smarter than all of us.

Now, when I say all of us wanted stimulous spending, I didn't mean every single Canadian. I am sure some were trying to say no.

But I was talking about all of the opposition parties in Canada. Wasn't it my posting that said Harper almost lost his job. So, I suppose I too would have had more respect for him if he didn't cave, but then he would be out and the coalition, led by Stephan Dion would have been in.

In Ontario, the NDP and Conservatives were screaming for stimulous funds. Save the auto sector, save every job, do something, but you were the sane voice.

The point I was making is that any party, Liberal, Conservative or NDP would have been roasted publicly by the media, and by the voter and the opposition if they didn't spend. The media was screaming for it. We are all to blame, well except you I guess.

But my other point is that now the opposition parties want us to forget their role in this and concentrate on the deficits, pretending they had nothing to do with it.

If you buy that song, then you are as guilty as they are. I love your line, I repeatedly said no. To who. I don't remember your name in the paper.

I suppose you were not screaming to support our forestry sector with hundreds of millions of dollars. You are a true free market person.

So in conclusion, the money was going to be spent, everyone ( except you and a few friends ) wanted it, and we are lucky we are getting more than our fair share. And it is helping us.

When permanent jobs come here, I find it shocking that you see that as anything but a good thing.

By your logic, we should create those new services somewhere else, get the third MRI machine placed in another city, forget about the angioplasty program and say hey, we don't need that stuff here.

That is really your view.

Good luck selling that.
9/1/2010 6:19:57 PM
abetterTbay. says:
Please let me clarify something for pieislandrefugee, economic diversity pertains to the creation of a labour market employing different professions. We don't want to rely on forestry, or mining, while are both great when the market demands.
What you imply of my statement, is that I want to faction the people. Come on now, get with it. Our waterfront will be great! exciting, just go for a walk down Red River Rd or eat at LumberJacks, the food is great, the people are feeling the buzz of new activity. That's united!
9/1/2010 7:17:38 PM
pieislandrefugee says:
captain, nope, Im not kidding you.

It appears that you really dont understand the pitfalls of government spending. Using your example (and that of all too many liberals) it seems you believe giving someone a welfare check is "stimulating the economy".

Whats the difference between giving someone a welfare check and they spend it on all those lovely things you mention and someone who works for the government directly, or indirectly??

One is working for their welfare money, and the other isnt. Hence the term..."welfare to work"

Thats really how it is. What those jobs are is not relevant, its who's paying the salaries (or the welfare check) that matters.

There is only ONE taxpayer. And if the employer is that same taxpayer... then its not an economy at all. Its a failure.

Ive tried explaining that to you before, but you have yet to catch on. Thats pretty sad.

abetterTbay.... sure you want us to be a jack of all trades and master of none. Which will leave us doing nothing more than looking for more and more government funding... Where is that funding coming from??

And, since Im not "with it" enough for you.. I refer you to a letter to the editor in today's newspaper regarding a walk along the waterfront and all that buzz youre referring to. Yes , its all great down there, isnt it? Perhaps thats the unity youre talking about?

"lakefront lowlifers"

9/1/2010 8:23:47 PM
captain says:
Pieslandrefugee, my apologies, I forgot to ask a question

if the liberals aren't doing enough for t.bay and if the jobs they are bringing don't really count for wealth etc etc,


please provide us with the answers that would create new jobs here in t.bay without gov't money.

I can't wait to read your answer
9/2/2010 11:00:48 AM
mysterybuff says:
Thunder Bay - a nice place to be from!
9/2/2010 1:42:16 PM
myopic not foolish says:
The economy will improve if more money is put in people's hands rather than increasing taxes to fund Welfare Corporate Scams.
9/2/2010 2:16:39 PM
captain says:
pieslandrefugee, my apologiesd, I am giving you way to much credit for any level of intelligence on economic issues.

You still wish to suggest that gov't spending cannot spur economic development. Well great, you have just told most economic experts, most leaders of industry, and most gov't officials that they are wrong.

No one is suggesting that it goes on forever, but do you remember the great depression. Rossevelt used deficit spending as one tool to get the economy kick started.

But I'll try again. ----- permanent, high paying jobs in t.bay that will create wealth throughout the economy. That is fact. your opinion does not change that reality.

Are you suggesting that tomorrow these jobs are going to disappear.

Do a little survey and find out how many other cities would love these jobs.

and please answer my last posting.

what do you suggest to "fix" the things that are wrong here.

Just exactly how are these new jobs you want going to be created.

Economists around the globe are standing by for your insightful opinion.

incredible really ----------- to suggest that these jobs don't mean anything. I am sure the people in them will be happy to hear that.

as for the letter to the editor, I am sorry, that is not where my opinions are formed. I prefer a few more facts something your postings continue to be short of.
9/2/2010 3:02:24 PM
yqtyqt says:
pieislandrefugee:

I happen to agree with you. Liberals everywhere are in denial that spending excessive money that we don't have and creating massive debt is a good thing. A ten year old would be smart enough to figure this out. Yes, I know that the ten year old's friends and foes are screaming for them to spend, as stated by Captain and Lori (who I think are one and the same), but even a ten year old knows better. Speaking of one and the same, don't buy into the story that everyone was encouraging them to spend. Only the old union leaning fools that have no other purpose than to satisfy their existance.

There is no need answering these bone-headed lefties. No logical answer will satisfy them. At least no answer that will satisfy their socialist atitudes. They can ask all they like. They simply don't understand that the liberal money tree is just about dead.
9/2/2010 4:21:43 PM
captain says:
hi yqt - I love that idea. It gave me a little chuckle.



now, back to your fairy tale

more baseless opinions. You have provided no facts, none except that we are running a deficit that is increasing the debt. Thanks for the news flash.


to suggest that people were not demanding action on the economy is simply denying the truth.

let me rephrase it for you and Piesland because you two are wayyyyyyy to literal

the majority of Canadians and all opposition parties regardless of what party was in power wanted stimulous spending to avoid a recession.

even our city council wanted it.

Harper almost became retired because he was refusing to spend money. But you don't have any criticism of the federal gov't here. Why is that. Is it because they are conservatives.

Why just the Liberals, the same old same old song. If you are at all consistent, you should be angry at Harper as well.

Now I don't like debt but Harper was forced into this. I don't agree with the level of spending, but so far the Liberals and NDP are offering nothing different.

Where I completely and totally dislike what is happening federally is that money is being spent, we are going into debt - not conjecture YQT, fact, and t.bay and region is getting next to nothing. They are doing quite well in Kenora riding, but here in t.bay next to nothing.

That is why the last two contracts at Bombardier got NOTHING from the feds. But we are still on the hook for the debt.

Now, lets go to your favourite topic. The Liberals.

the conservatives and NDP screamed for stimulous money and jobs in Ontario. well not you and piesland, you were smarter than all of us. But if you could read, there were thousands of reports of that type

by the way, I didn't want them to spend the cash either. I don't like debt either but the picture is just not as simple as you like to make it.

again, they were going to spend it anyway.

The big difference is that money is coming here by the truckload and we are better off for it.

So Federal Deficit spending policy, not doing much for t.bay

Provincial deficit spending doing great things for t.bay

so again, a couple of questions

why is your economic expertise never used to criticize the conservatives

and what do you suggest is the appropriate method to ensure a depression doesn't happen.

Please enlighten us oh wise one.

Because like Lori, I love the stuff coming here from the province. We would be nothing without it.

I don't care if you hate Gravelle and Mauro, I don't care if you have hated Liberals all of your life and if you hate deficits.

It does not change the reality that those two have made a huge difference in this town.

By the way, part of the deficit spending you don't like has resulted in hundreds of new jobs at Bombardier and has saved lives on the hospital.

Go tell those folks you don't agree with the money here. I am sure they will love your opinion.

and one last thing.

Chezhank is not a fan of the Liberals, but unlike you, he is putting his name forward to run in the election.

you, long on opinion, short on everything else. Put your money where your mouth is. Any fool can sit on the sidelines and say the quarterback is calling the wrong plays. lets see you do better

it is people like you that will make darn sure I vote liberal.

and I am not a union member but I was once. just like anything else YQT, there are two sides to the union issue.

Unfortunately it is obvious there is only black and black with you.
9/3/2010 2:38:51 PM
captain says:
yqt

still waiting

any money left on the conservative money tree in Ottawa. Oh, that's right, we don't criticize the conservatives here for the same things the Liberals are allegedly doing.

only the Liberal money is coming here
9/3/2010 4:41:49 PM
george2000 says:
This is just an observation of mine and maybe it means something, maybe not.

But for this entire project, Ms. Dunmore is the one who has been facing the firing line. She is not even the head of her department.

She answers to her boss, then to the city manager, then to council. Why is she the one holding the bag. maybe she is not good, but certainly any of these decisions cannot be made by her alone.
9/3/2010 4:46:40 PM
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