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2010-12-03 at 14:33

Pain at the pumps

By Leith Dunick, tbnewswatch.com
Thunder Bay Military Family Resource CentreThank you Thunder Bay for making the Spring Craft and Yard Sale a success! Drop by the MFRC to purchase your yellow ribbon pins. Call 345-5116Click Here for Details
Motorists are not happy and Big Oil is taking the full brunt of their anger after gas prices soared by 10.1 cents a litre to $1.21.9 at most Thunder Bay stations on Thursday.

The line of vehicles at THP Gas Bar and Variety stretched from the pumps to City Road on the Fort William First Nation Friday, as frustrated drivers waited in line up to half an hour for gas priced 20 cents a litre less than at off-reserve stations.

"Downtown they are taking advantage of the price. They are taking advantage of this situation. That’s why people are coming to buy gas here," said Aldo Mascarin, well back in the THP line.

"The prices are way too high. They shouldn’t be that big a difference from down East to up North here. To transport the gas from wherever it comes from, there shouldn’t be that big a difference. Either they’re gouging us or they’re making too much profit."

Current River resident Cathy Milani said the trek to the other side of town is a fiscally responsible move on her part.

"The gas is so high in town that it’s worth it to come out here to fill up," she said. "What are they, $1.22? That’s ridiculous. That’s awful. We’re being gouged. Between the gas and the cigarettes, the government is nickel-and-diming us to death," Milani said.

According to the consumer watchdog website ontariogasprices.com, the national average for a litre of gasoline is $1.07.6. In Toronto gas now averages $1.12 a litre, 4.4 cents more than it was on Thursday.
According to Liberal MP Dan McTeague’s blog, Tomorrow’s Gas Price Today, the increase had little to do with oil and gasoline increases on the New York Mercantile Exchange, attributing 0.5 cents of the increase Torontonians face to market conditions.

"The other 3.9 cents per litre is directly related to the ability of the few refiners Canada has left to take advantage of market enthusiasm," McTeague writes.

Cedar Avenue resident Bill Howe said he won’t pay inflated prices to gas station owners in town when there are other options available.

"They’re all sticking together," he said. "It’s the same price all over town, so obviously there’s some sort of collaboration or something. That’s what I feel, anyway."

With Christmas just three weeks away, Howe said it seemed like nothing more than a cash grab, taking advantage of busier-than-usual streets while people are out shopping and visiting friends and family.
"I think so, yes. Why all of a sudden has it jumped 10 cents a litre in town from a couple of days ago?."

For Kari Ropponen, it’s dollars and cents, nothing more.

"To save $10 to $15 on a fill-up, it’s lots of money," said Ropponen, who has all but given up on getting his gas at city stations. "I just don’t believe in paying the prices there."

Asked where to place the blame, Ropponen said he’s not sure.

"Who knows? Somebody’s making money. I don’t know who. I don’t understand why it has to be so high. Why do we have to pay for it? It has to be a cash grab." Click here to submit a letter to the editor.

Click here to report a typo or error

Tbnewswatch.com(66)

Comments

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AJ147 says:
Legalized theft is all it is. It has very little to do with market forces & is based more on profiteering than anything else.
12/3/2010 2:59:31 PM
elvis2010 says:
Couldn't believe it when I got back to town on Wednesday. When I left Kenora the price was $1.06 there, here it was $1.11 now almost $1.22, this is ridiculous!
12/3/2010 4:05:48 PM
Toodleoo Caribou says:
Of course it's a cash-grab...

That said, does half the population of Thunder Bay really need 5-litre V8 pick-up trucks to get to the supermarket??? Pick-up trucks are the knuckle-dragging chimpanzees of the automotive world... at least $1.20 per litre will hasten their demise.
12/3/2010 4:07:21 PM
ranma says:
at this point you might as well go to the border, get your holiday beer, and fill up on gas. Even after duty, beer is only a dollar a can. Where as in town you are looking anywhere from 1.50 to 2 bux a can. Get 3-4 cases and you just got yourself a free one. Fill up and wow look you just got yourself another free one. My car takes premium only, and even after the 10 bux or so it costs to drive to the border, I save almost 25 bux a tank. Makes you wonder! 75 or so in town, or 33 at the border!
12/3/2010 4:09:43 PM
Tannoy says:
Time to start going to the states for gas/beer again, your allowed a 20L Gas can ontop of your tank in your car/truck. The savings of all that is way more then i spend going there and back.
12/3/2010 4:12:38 PM
tiredofit says:
There's a reason the gas nozzle shapped like a gun!
12/3/2010 4:34:59 PM
Momkat says:
Time to boycott local gas stations and head out to the reserve to get our gas...Apparently NO one wants to hear us that, this is ridiculous. Convenient how whenever there is a long weekend or holidays coming up....so does the gas??? I am tired of our local MP's talking and complaining...and nothing changes...Time for citizens to take matters in to their own hands. Maybe then, when the gas gougers aren't making any money...they will compete fairly. I live in Current River and will happily drive to the reserve to get my car filled up, even if I save $5.00. I'd rather have that 5 in my pocket than some gas gouging grinch!! Merry Christmas!
12/3/2010 4:42:19 PM
panzerIV says:
Wait till the American economy gets going then gas will be expensive. Hopefully the city doesn't take too long with there transit study because if they can make an effective and safe transit system then they will have another passenger.

12/3/2010 5:41:53 PM
nvjgu says:
For me it Dosn't matter how much it goes up There still only going to get 40 buck's a week from me. If I only get half a tank rather than a full tank then thats how much less I will drive even if it means not going to work cause it costs to much to drive the car there. Im thinking may be one of those electrc bikes from Canadian Tire is in order. We all need to change our lifestyles and it's time to buckel up. Enuf is enuf THE END.
12/3/2010 5:42:49 PM
Rick says:
Thank you too the Liberal Party...we'll all be seeing you pounding down road soon.!
12/3/2010 6:50:30 PM
TBDR says:
The problem is that all people in Thunder Bay do is complain, but they don't actually take any action. I don't see bus ridership increase in the winter, or fewer cars on the road in the summer. So you complain, but then you go fill up anyway.

As for me? I drive a little hatchback that even at 1.21 a litre costs 45 bucks every 7-9 days. :)
12/3/2010 7:12:34 PM
InTheBay says:
Here we go again. Gas prices are heading north and don't be surprised when it only gets worse. As of right now the price of oil is roughly $90 per barrel and the resulting price at the pump is $1.22 per litre. Imagine what the price at the pump will be if we get any where close to the $149 per barrel price it was just a couple of years ago.

Why hasn't our government stepped in and said something about the gross overpricing at the pump. Oh wait they have. They are apart of the problem. There is a new 8% tax on our gas. This new tax adds roughly 10 cents per litre. If you have a 50 litre tank that's an extra $5 per fill up. Over a longer course of time that really adds up to something.

I don't know what we can do to lower the cost of gas except to stop driving larger and less efficient vehicles. When we do that there goes the economy again. I just hope it doesn't get to that.
12/3/2010 7:44:54 PM
advocate says:
Boycotting local businesses and going to the Reserve does nothing to stop the problem. All you do is avoid paying the taxes.

The real issue is with the oil producers and suppliers.
12/3/2010 7:59:52 PM
hurricanejeck says:
Please answer me this... Why did gas only go up 4.4 cents in Southern Ontario? In Saugeen Shores, population 12000, the cost is 107.6/liter. Again, please enlighten me.
12/3/2010 8:49:55 PM
dank says:
Happy holidays from the same greedy oil companies getting the corporate tax breaks. Happy holidays also from the politians cashing in on the HST bonanza from gas, natural gas and electricity. Makes you wonder why charities are having such a rough time with donations- do the math!
12/3/2010 9:09:26 PM
tsb says:
This is simply the cost of not having a refinery within 1,000km of the city.
12/3/2010 9:24:49 PM
tbayguy009 says:
Concidering that Canada is an oil exporting nation (if I recall 2.5 million barrels a day to the USA), I don't see any reason that Canadians need to be constantly gouged like this. Why can't some Canadian government, somewhere, build an oil refinery in THIS country, to supply THIS country with it OWN natural resource.

Instead of building stupid 'infrastructure' projects, why hasn't any of those 'infrastructure' projects ever included our independance from world oil prices. Why aren't Canadian politicians putting Canadians FIRST! Government would stick up for our sovereignty from foreign potash investors, while at the same time selling us out on oil years ago. (where the 'real' money is)

Answer: Because they keep giving us stupid things that we are constantly being convinced are more important. And 'we' keep borrowing more money, for others to profit from, for our own homegrown stupidity. How many other countries have the oil resources that Canada does. One, only ONE. Only Saudi Arabian has more oil reserves than Canada.

But we let government spend money for the sake of spending money! It 'creates jobs'. Blah, blah, blah.

We are just enslaving future generations into a life of debt repayment.(give your head a shake people)(oh and go buy a new gas sucking truck, to support the economy too)

If popiticians want to help 'fix' things, how about they start by stabilizing things! Out of fear of this constant uncertainty, everyone should be very careful on every dollar they spend. I will gladly reduce my standard of living, to have a more stable future. I can't trust anyone else. Who knows, how some government will change my life tomorrow? or the next day? or the next year?

Between electricity and fuel prices, the government gouges the public, while at the same time having yet another excuse to give big business more tax breaks. They keep giving money to contractors to build things that are totally unimportant to the needs of the many. Food, clothing, shelter. ALL taxed. But 'we' will have a 'new' marina. We have high electricity rates, and yet 'need' lights on the expressway for the 'cheap' price of $30 million. (safety has no cost limit) (If we need to spend trillions to save one life, we are convinced it is 'worth' it.)

How poor does our Government want the Canadian standard of living to be? Look at UN rankings and opinions about this country from the outside world. Poverty is being recognized in Canada. BUT, not recognized in this country, by its own people. We are too stupid, ignorant and arrogant to look at ourselves. We need other countries to tell us this.

If Thunder Bay's one gasline supplier gets water in their holding tanks, the city runs out of gas in a couple of days. Great! Ummm, no, stupid to the tenth degree.

Sorry, but my rant is over. For now.
12/3/2010 9:36:01 PM
imhere says:
As much as everyone loves to complain when the price of gas goes to crazy amounts, which it is, you still see everyone driving around town like it's nothing. Great to b*tch and belly ache about the price but then do something about it. This is one of the major reasons we don't have a vehicle. Time to learn to car pool or start taking city transit more - that would help keep that at a decent cost. Don't be afraid to park your car at home, even one or two days a week, car pool a couple where possible and for heavens sake if you want to constantly complain about the price of gas get a more economical vehicle. People with gas guzzlers loose their b*tching rights.
12/3/2010 10:21:09 PM
mrforreal says:
its called inflation my "dont know why this is happening" friends,
Soon all fiat (paper/digital) money will be worth less and worthless as they print more of it and soon it will be worthless like fiat money always becomes. Physical silver, precious metals and tangible assets will only save you front the coming inflation. $2/L gas, then 3$ then 5$ then 10$/L. until all your paper / digital money is gone. "google" "weimar republic" and you will know why Gas and food and energy prices are going up. ;)
12/3/2010 10:31:56 PM
mapleleaf1970 says:
I would love to see a city bus go down rural areas of Thunder Bay so that some folks could have the opportunity to public transportation and reduce their own cost and carbon foot print.

I would love to get on the bus from Lakeshore Drive and jump on the Mainline from Hodder Ave.

It would save me a few bucks.

12/3/2010 11:15:33 PM
young&concerned says:
82 cents a litre at Ryden's Border Store (as of Friday night) with the dollar at par.

Recently gas was in the low 90's a litre and has increased some 30 cents. If the US raised their gas prices $1.15 a gallon there would be outrage/and the American public would go crazy, they would take it into their own hands and the US goverment knows it and knows better. We just take it.
12/3/2010 11:35:18 PM
mrforreal says:
I guess I will go to the reserve or US until the drop they prices here in town!
12/3/2010 11:35:37 PM
010665 says:
Lets be clear on one point. The local gas station owners are not to blame. They are generally hard working citizens of this city who pay significant taxes and employ a lot of local people. They don't make more money if the price goes up and sales decline, they make less as most make per litre fixed commissions. And yes I am an owner. And by the way, you know who complains the most? The relatively well off folks who tool around town in expensive big 4 by 4 rigs most of which have never seen a dirt road.
12/4/2010 12:55:12 AM
fighter says:
The unions protest the wage freeze and we should start protesting these crazy gas prices. It still makes no sense how gas prices shoot up and rarely come down. If I really didn't need a vehicle I would surely just ride my bike.
12/4/2010 1:54:06 AM
panzerIV says:
In Thunder Bay all the gas stations fill up from the same spot. This creates a monopoly and doesn't allow for competition, as well there isn't a refinery in our region so the prices to transport the commodity are cheaper.

The reason for the price difference is that the reserve gas stations save 13% on purchase which allows them to keep the price down. Unfortunately our city owned gas stations dont have that luxury and show the actual price with HST and all other inflated prices because of our geographical position.

O yeah, dont forget many of the oil companies are American owned. We drill the oil send it to the states and then buy it from the states at there price a large amount of the time.
12/4/2010 7:15:24 AM
nvjgu says:
Well guessing that the price goes up if you concerve, The less you use the more you pay. They have to show a profit for the share holders no matter how much less you use . We are not going to win this one people the combustion engine is on it's way out anyway so dont worry about it and besides there is only fifty yrs of oil left , Can you amagin life with no oil, Oil is the reason modern city's are able to be built with no oil they will not function, To bad for our kid's, I haven't got a clue as to what they are going to eat, Yes oil put's food on the table as well as growing it. No oil no food no tupperware, nothing SCARY.
12/4/2010 9:13:01 AM
nvjgu says:
There is no pain at the pumps here amagin blowing a tank of gas a day driving to and from work southern Ont then paying 20 bucks to park your car when you get there, nutty lol. When I lived there I was spending at least minimum of 200 a wk for gas then another 40 for the bus cause I couldn't get my car close enuf to the job to be able to walk from where I had to park.
12/4/2010 9:26:45 AM
sheband says:
Price variations exist in the U.S. too. How about the residents of North Branch MN this week who paid $2.84 a gallon, while down the road 13 miles @ Cambridge MN Cub Foods was selling it @ 2.69. Americans would be screaming if they paid Canadian gas prices.
12/4/2010 10:56:36 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
I'm amazed that the individuals responsible for the local price-gouging here never ever seems to be identifiable, and they always manage to remain totally anonymous and unknown. Curious. Protection by friends in high places, I imagine.
12/4/2010 12:46:09 PM
tsb says:
The people responsible for the price gouging are Petro Canada, since they operate the only tank farm in the city, therefore control 100% of the distribution of gas.

Please, someone point out to me the other gas storage facility within our city! Then look at a map and find the nearest refinery to our city, and ask yourself how that gas gets here.

Transportation and storage of goods is not free! It costs more to be isolated.
12/4/2010 2:01:26 PM
GoToRydens says:
82.9 cents/litre @ Rydens Saturday Dec 4/10 10:00am. Road conditions... dirty, but clear (very little ice or snow)
12/4/2010 3:00:32 PM
tbaybmkr says:
Was just in Winnipeg yesterday (friday) gas was 95.6 cents a litre for regular gas... Funny, Dryden was under a dollar as well...
12/4/2010 4:39:28 PM
nvjgu says:
Adding to my comments below theres a much bigger problem than price brewing, If your thirty yrs old it may happin in your life time that is no oil or gas to buy. Did anybody see line ups at the pumps 10 15 yrs ago this is just the begining.
12/4/2010 4:58:02 PM
dbenedic says:
Wouldn't it be nice if the government treated all Canadians the same and we all had to pay the same for gas and other things. In the mean time, lets all rush to the USA and the reserves.
12/4/2010 5:30:07 PM
pearlman says:
Not sure if you folks have been watching the news - but it's shot up almost everywhere... Places in Montreal are selling gas for more than $1.24/L.... It's not just a 'local' price gouge...
12/4/2010 6:04:51 PM
DohNutz says:
Gasoline prices have always been fixed to the benefit of the suppliers. The biggest scam is the "volume corrected to 15 degrees Celcius". Do NOT, for one second, think that this correction favours the consumer. Gasoline expands and contracts considerably with temperature (as do most liquids) - if the oil companies can shave even a few pennies across the board on this conversion, they rake in millions! Why is this conversion not standardized? Where are the regulatory bodies to ensure consumer protection from this "sand in the vasoline" the oil companies give us.....
12/4/2010 8:37:38 PM
www.TheDrivingSchool.ca says:
This price is killing us!
12/4/2010 9:51:17 PM
FernandoMartinez says:
DohNutz makes an excellent point and I've noted this in the past. However, DohNutz is wrong about the consumer ALWAYS getting screwed. On hot days, this correction favours the consumers. With weather being the way it is in Thunder Bay, overall we lose throughout the year, but there are days where we win out. I've been trying to find a graph of temperature versus density of gasoline to find out if the peak density of gasoline is at 15C (thus gas companies screwing us over). 15C always seemed random to me.

The reason they do this is because density varies with temperature and so on colder days, without a standard temperature and density to correct the volume to, you'd be getting more gas at the same volume you would on a warmer day. I should look at gas price histories over several years to see just how much gas prices rose in the summer to negate the consumer winning on this 15C correction.

The colder it gets, the more dense the gasoline gets. That's because the same mass of gasoline is present, but the liquid has contracted to a smaller volume. In the winter, therefore, you'd be getting more gas for the same price if the volume wasn't corrected to 15C.

Likewise in the summer, you'd be getting less gas than you would if the volume wasn't corrected to the density of gas at 15C. Now we in Thunder Bay get screwed over by this because only for a few short months does the temperature stay consistently well above 15C. The rest of the year, we lose out.

How much we lose out is a different question. I would love to do the calculations of how much we'd save in Thunder Bay if the volume wasn't corrected to 15C, but I'm still searching for the temperature-density graph of gasoline.



This is related to chemistry. Long ago, chemists used to express concentrations of solutions in units of moles per litre (also called molar). A mole is 6.022x10^23 particles. But they too realized that density (and therefore volume) changes with temperature. So the reported concentration at one temperature, was a different concentration at another.

Instead, they started using a unit called the molal (or a mole per kilogram). This meant that no matter what the temperature was, the reported concentration - in those units - would remain the same.

They should do the same with gasoline. Instead of charging in units of dollars per litre, charge in units of $ per kilogram of gasoline. That way, it doesn't matter what the temperature is, you are not being screwed over and there is no need for any volume corrections.

As a side note, chemists in high school and early university still deal most often in units of moles per litre because it's more intuitive and easier to understand. Molals are more often used when very precise concentrations need to be known.
12/4/2010 10:32:09 PM
nvjgu says:
Well I will tell ya im doing something about it. I went to put gas in on Friday seen the price of it turned around put the car back in the driveway and there it still sits on Sunday.
12/5/2010 3:07:06 AM
tudor says:
pearlman---stop suggesting that this is a global thing. Only T.bay gets screwed.

has anyone thought about driving less.

look around this city when you are driving and count the number of cars with only one person in them.

The overwhelming majority have one person in them. We feel "entitled" to live however we wish with our car and thing nothing of sitting in line for five minutes to get a coffee. Drive throughs are everywhere.

We pay more for coffee than we do for gas

Our city is built to make driving more of a necessity because it is so spread out and so ineffecient.

But like always, people need someone else to blame instead of looking at ourselves and what we can do to make things better.

We need to grow up, use less and be responsible for ourselves.

As one posting said below, he was spending 200 per week for parking and gas while living down south.

When people stop spending $2 a litre for bottled water or pop, maybe I will feel some sympathy for this issue.
12/5/2010 8:52:04 AM
Hardrawkin says:
I just traveled Highway 11 from North Bay and the most I paid for gas was $1.13. Again Thunder bay is a leader. Maybe with all those gas guzzling trucks and SUV's in town they figure we can afford it ?
12/5/2010 8:57:37 AM
pieislandrefugee says:
I hate to defend the oil companys here but once again Fernando, your high school analysis fails to realize that the gas is stored in tanks buried in the ground. Those tanks are in a much stabler temperature surrounding than the air temps above ground.

So you can micro-analyze it all you want, but your labratory numbers fail to acknowledge the difference between in-ground temps and atmospheric temps.

Also, everytime you folks cry you want the government to pay for things, you have to realize that very government gets its money from taxing the snot out of you. It does this to businesses as well as the people.

Thats why its so much cheaper on the reserve... when coinicidently, they are allowed to keep their tanks ABOVE ground as opposed to our mandated underground tanks.

So, as true as the temperature/volume factors go, they are a much larger factor on the reserve pumps than in town.

Again, I hate to defend the oil companys because they actually are gouging us, but lets at least compare apples to apples here.

Also.. we are not running out of oil. Theres lots of it, and the Earth is making more and more of it everyday. Its called abiotic oil, and its the reason many wells which were previously capped off and considered "dry" have actually mysteriously filled up again.

Oil is a natural resource, and the earth creates it, thus it is actually a renewable resource... but they oil companys dont want you to know that. They can make much more if they keep telling you its harder to get and pump but reality, we've got lots and lots of oil, and we wont run out anytime soon.

Peak oil is a myth, designed to take your money through fear... just like many other widely believed occurances/situations.
12/5/2010 9:09:48 AM
CarbonFootprinter says:
Fernando, there's also at least one other factor to consider. For the most part, storage tanks are well below ground level, aside from the above ground tanks i've seen at the stations on the reserve. I wonder if the 15c number was selected to be an average of ground temperature. The storage tanks below ground would maintain a pretty tight range of temperature from geothermal heat.

I'd think it would be mostly negligible for the end consumer, accounting for a few cents on a tankful, but on an overall view could be a measurable and distinct quantity. An underground tank will hold a certain heat, or coolness, depending on time of year, as the fluids acclimate to ground temperature. I know i've filled a transfer tank in the bed of my truck, only to drive home, or the jobsite, park it in the sunlight, and find it soon starts to overflow from expansion, as i filled it too close to the top with cooler than ambient temperature fuel from underground.
12/5/2010 9:25:30 AM
Bobguy says:
I'm sure that the temperature affects the gasoline however the tanks are held in underground tanks where the temperature doesn't swing as much as the air above. I'm sure that the difference in cost is relatively low. Our government has an entire minsitry of weights and measures set up to protect our interests.
12/5/2010 9:43:53 AM
rothmich says:
Energy prices are determined on a global scale, while they are essentially a local commodity.

The gas in our station's holding tanks does NOT equal the price if that gas was in downtown Beijing for a number of reasons that are so obvious I'm not even going to comment on them.

People shouldn't be allowed to make money on energy like this, especially when they have little to no part in it's creation or distribution... all they do is fix the damn price.

This is a HUGE problem.
12/5/2010 9:50:41 AM
gigabyte says:
Hate to add to the pain felt by those in TBay, but those of us in Fort Frances have much cheaper gas at 106.9 and can get cheaper still by driving across to International Falls where its always around 0.80. That we can get cheaper gas here in Fort screams something is up at the TBay pumps.
12/5/2010 12:29:15 PM
MikeVirtanen1961 says:
The annual average temperature in Thunder Bay is somewhere near 4C, so we would be getting slightly less than expected. However, as gasoline is a mix of hydrocarbons rather than a single chemical, the specific density can vary greatly from batch to batch. Someone with a fresher knowledge of high-school chemistry could do the math, but I'd expect that difference might be greater than the temperature variation.

Most geologists consider large-scale generation of abiotic petroleum to be a fantasy.
12/5/2010 2:19:20 PM
lori says:
okay pieland, I may regret this, but you actually have my attention.

Where did you get this information about renewable oil.

My belief was that previously abandoned wells were viable again because of technology and the higher price for oil.

YOu are presenting a completely different theory. Where is this information from because I would love to read it.

AS for your opinion on wanting the gov't to use taxes to reduce prices, we have agreed on something.

We do want it all.

Cheap gas, cheap power, cheap heat, cheap food, cheap housing, extensive gov't services, cheap private sector services high wages and low taxes.

I won't hold my breath waiting for all of that to take place.
12/5/2010 4:01:46 PM
FernandoMartinez says:
To pieislandrefugee:

As for the little substance of what you said, above ground or below ground tanks, the temperature of that gas varies a lot when you're facing -50C in the winter and 30C in the summer. Nobody is saying that the actual temperature of the gas is -50C, but it'll be damn colder than 15C, and therefore denser. That was the point. Nowhere did I say air temperature was equal to the temperature of the gas in the ground. I just figured nobody would be stupid enough to make that sort of asinine assumption, but thank you for proving me wrong, pie.

Yes, the ground has an insulating effect, but it is not a perfect Thermos. The ground is susceptible to large temperature fluctuations. Not as much as air temperature, but still significant.

Charging in units of $/kg gasoline makes more sense because then temperature does not become a factor. There would be no need for volume "corrections" and gouging of consumers and you get charged for a consistent amount.

Oh and..."high school analysis"? Pie, I'm a chemist. You own a garage. This discussion is about the physical and chemical properties of gasoline. When it comes to knowledge about the physical and chemical properties of various fluids, I'll hazard a guess and say that I know more. When the discussion veers onto the topic of combustion engines, for example, I'll gladly admit my knowledge to be inferior to yours. Until then, you are really in no position to be dismissing what I wrote as a "high school analysis".

I simply laughed at the rest of your post.

To CarbonFootprinter:

Being underground, the tanks would benefit from an insulating effect, yes. But when we have such weather extremes in the summer and winter as we do in Thunder Bay, no doubt the ground temperature in the winter will be significantly colder than that in the summer. Probably not nearly an 80C difference as with the air temperature, of course, but a significant amount. The ground insulates the tanks, but it isn't a perfect Thermos.

Depending on the fluid, a large temperature difference may not be required to exhibit a large change in volume due to the properties of the molecule in question. Specifically concerning gas, I'm unsure how much that density varies with temperature which is why in my original post, I said I was looking for a temperature-density graph for gasoline.

I would absolutely love to do the calculations on this to see roughly how much this volume correction costs the average motorist, but without sufficient data, that would be very difficult.
12/5/2010 6:47:59 PM
Ranma says:
Just an update, up here in Sudbury where I am for school for a month, the price is 1.12 a litre for regular. Tell me Thunder Bay is not being screwed hardcore!
12/5/2010 8:54:44 PM
Wild says:
Oil is a huge part of revenue for the Canadian governments.Calculate the total taxes on fuel which includes excise PST & GST and you can see why that 30% +- tax which equals roughly 6 billion spending dollars a year helps to pay those solid gold politician wages and carefree spending habits.Pain at the pumps for you but political pocketbook pleasure for your servants.
12/5/2010 10:07:04 PM
LittleOne87 says:
I was recently in Dryden this weekend and the gas was at 1.06, pleas tell me how there is such a difference in price just a few hours away??? This is rediculous!!!!
12/6/2010 10:54:22 AM
pieislandrefugee says:
Fernando, I love people like you. They take a little beating, but they come back for more, with an even more foolish approach. The good thing is eventually you get it right. In your case I hope that day is soon.

The biggest problem is that folks like you with a little knowledge are dangerous. How can you be dangerous you ask? Well, follow along and at the end, I'll tell you.

So as a lowly mechanic, it seems apparent that Im no expert on chemistry huh? Well, youre right, its not my strongest field. However as an auto-technician, I can assure you the sciences are delved into everyday by folks just like me. Real mechanics know how things work..you have to in order to best understand them, and if you want to diagnose something, you have to fully understand them.

An automobile is pure science. Its chemistry, physics and practical application of them all rolled into one. Today the chemistry is playing an interesting part. We are dealing with all sorts of fuels an additives that are often thrown into the mix by the oil companys for the same purpose a drug dealer cuts his or her product.

We are seeing ethanol contents increase to a claimed 15% but real world numbers reaching 20%. Not really a factor in Canada, but the possibility of dealing with it as people frequent the USA for their fuels is all but a common situation. Diesel fuels have changed dramatically over the last decade mostly because of enviornmental concerns. It surely hasnt been at the request of the manufacturers. They have struggled to keep out the green freaks who act out through lobbyists out of making ridiculous demands that cant be economically and practicaly met. As a result we have fuel additives such as urea to contend with.

Yes as a mechanic I have to be aware of this volatile environment these idiots have placed us in...all in the name of environmental concerns.

Battery technology is finally reaching some new levels...and thats pure chemistry. So, claiming that my expertise falls only upon the combustion engine only makes your statement look even more ridiculous.

How ridiculous? Well Fernando..have you ever wondered why the water pipes in tthe ground dont freeze? Could it be because they are buried deep enough where they can maintain the temperature of the Earth and not be influenced by the atmospheric temps above ground?

Do you learn in school how deep our underground fuel tanks are buried? The other day they had them dug up at the old Arthur & Franklin Esso station, perhaps you can organize a field trip amongst your class and you can go see for yourself.

Then maybe you can zip on over to the city's public works department and ask how deep they bury the water lines and why they bury them instead of putting them above ground.

You may be shocked what you learn.

Perhaps for some more excitement you can delve into the deep dark mystery how geo-thermmal heating systems work!

You see, learning in a lab does nothing for common sense,as evidenced by your comment.

Now I promised you I would explain how people like you can be dangerous. Without further delay, I will.

You claim to be a chemist. I see you are a student though, so you cant really be both. Id say youre a student studying chemistry.

When you claim to be a chemist and you cant apply common sense that even a ditchdigger has, you do the world a great disservice. People like you advocate silly theroies that have no basis in common sense or reality. People like you cause alarmists to go running through the streets screaming that theyre getting less gas than theyre paying for.

Thats dangerous, and thats the type of nonsense the government has to contend with when they make their laws and policies. People like you cause expensive studies to take place when practical knowledge knew the answer long before you and I were born. Thats why we have the apprenticeship system in the first place, so people can learn from those already aware of the details.

A few people have already tried explaing that to you, but in true Scientist" fashion, youre not listening. Yes that was sarcasm. Scientists are always supposed to be open to the factors involved in any scenario, but you have shown us your inability to listen to reality.... and that makes you a perfect example of the old saying."A little knowledge is dangerous"

Lori, just start reading about "abiotic oil". We all know the Earth made our oil naturally, what scientists (like Fernando) dont really know is how much oil the Earth continues to make, and the rate its being made at.

Theres some entertaining stories out there regarding our true oil supply, but like most commodity traders know, you cant let the supply bury the demand. So these companys profit the most from the publics fear and belief that our demand is greater than the supply.

all in the name of profit. Just the reason that brought this news story to our attention.
12/6/2010 2:38:34 PM
eddylives says:
There is a theory about an unpaid account that has the supplier keeping the price inflated until said debt is recouperated....I have tried to inform of this once but I will be suprised if this gets posted......
12/6/2010 3:32:09 PM
observer says:
What we must all do is completely boycott any of the city gas stations. As long as people go to Shell, Esso Petro Can, then they will do what they want with the price.
I have stopped using the local stations in town for months and go across the bridge to the reserve. On my salary I can't afford to pay that price to get back and forth from work.
12/6/2010 4:55:28 PM
trent says:
A quick check on GasBuddy this afternoon shows that the 10 most expensive stations in Ontario are ALL in Thunder Bay.
12/6/2010 5:20:34 PM
jasper says:
@pie
you have stated previously that you are a student, now you are a chemist? kind of putting the cart before the horse don't you think. until you graduate and actually join the workforce(outside of retail)you are still just a student. the chemistry program must be quite taxing if you can still find the time to bore us all to death on every subject on this website.
12/6/2010 7:22:44 PM
chezhank says:
Wife picked up parcel and topped off tank for 86¢/Litre at Rydens,no HST on either!
12/6/2010 8:10:53 PM
nvjgu says:
Just reporting on my previous comment. Its now tuesday and my car is still in the driveway because of the gas price since last friday and yes I drive like everbody else but will not pay that price I refuse. If it stays like this I will never drive again and am concedering quiting my job which requires a lot of driving to and from and in between. Im not being payed enuff to pay that price for gas . Thank you.
12/7/2010 7:33:07 AM
FernandoMartinez says:
To pieislandrefugee:

I don't doubt you have some small, basic knowledge of chemistry. Most people do. But when you're up against someone who has and is studying the subject quite thoroughly, is specializing in it, and when you call what they have to say a "high school analysis", it just shows how ignorant you are and unwilling to listen to someone who knows better on the subject. Now, if you yourself have studied chemistry, you may be able to make that call. But you are a mechanic. Yes, automobiles are an application of many fields of science and to an extent you have to know a bit about that science to be able to fix them. But that doesn't mean you have a doctorate in chemistry or know more than someone who has and is studying the subject, just like I don't know how to fix a car any more than a mechanic who has spent years fixing cars. We need mechanics. We need chemists. Nobody can specialize in everything.

Up until this point, I've kept my personal attacks generally to a minimum and I've responded quite thoroughly to whatever little substance you had in your posts and showed you how your assumptions are wrong.

Do you know what an adiabatic system is, pie? A gas tank in the ground is not an adiabatic system. Energy can still get in and out of the ground. There ARE temperature fluctuations. The temperature doesn't stay at a consistent 15C. If it did, there would be no need for corrections to the volume at 15C.

As for the part on the fuel additives, I'm unsure what that has to do with the topic at hand. The topic is about the temperature and density of gas and how much of an insulating effect the ground would have on a gas tank.


I have no idea what you are talking about. I never said your expertise was limited to combustion engines. I said "for example". Do you know what an "example" is, pie? An example is a demonstration of a particular entity within a set. The set is your total knowledge and combustion engines are a particular entity.



"Well Fernando..have you ever wondered why the water pipes in tthe ground dont freeze? Could it be because they are buried deep enough where they can maintain the temperature of the Earth and not be influenced by the atmospheric temps above ground?"

This paragraph right here just demonstrates that you have absolutely not a single clue. Let me give you a crash course on what a Thermos is and you tell me if the ground is anything like a Thermos.

A Thermos is an approximation of an adiabatic system. The way it is constructed, it makes it very difficult for heat transfer to occur to and from the system. In other words, whatever is in the Thermos is kept hot because heat can't get out. It's also kept cold because heat can't get in. Of course, if you leave your hot coffee in a Thermos for a long time, it will eventually get cold. This is because it is impossible to construct a perfectly adiabatic system. Read that sentence again, so it sinks in. In other words, it's impossible for the ground temperature to NOT be affected by the atmospheric temperature, however little, because of the mere fact that the ground is in thermal contact with the atmosphere. Look up the Laws of Thermodynamics sometime.

A Thermos contains double walls with a vacuum in between and mirrored/silvered sides. Your homework for tonight: Tell me why a vacuum and mirrored sides prevents heat transfer.

Once you figure that out and tell me how that's ANYTHING like a pipe or a tank buried in the ground...how that's ANYTHING even remotely like an adiabatic system...you'll see how ridiculous your statement is that atmospheric temperature "does not influence" ground temperature. And on top of it, you have the gall to call me "dangerous" and that whatever I have to say is a "high school analysis" when you don't understand the least bit about thermodynamics, yet are trying to pass yourself off as an expert. I'm no expert either, but I'm sure I know more than you. But what was I thinking? You're a mechanic. Therefore you have a doctorate in every scientific field there is.

And how many times do I have to tell you. YES! The ground has an insulating effect!!! It isn't a perfect insulator!!!

Here's an experiment we did in high school which you'd recognize if you had graduated. The physics class was asked to go home and design and construct a Thermos and we had a competition to determine whose Thermos performed the best. Then we went and learned why their Thermos was better than the rest. The best one approximated a vacuum between two walls with mirrored sides. The worst insulators were the ones who just filled the inner portion of two walls with sand or some other filling material.

It's amazing how someone could be so ignorant, so oblivious, so unwilling to see reason and facts, and yet so damn proud of it.

A lab may do nothing for common sense, but a garage does even less. Which alarmist am I sending running through the streets by pointing out the obvious FACT that the ground isn't a perfect insulator? Who is running through the streets? What are you smoking and can I have some?

Entertain me. Where have I said anything about alarmism? What expensive studies have I commissioned? This should be quite amusing. You are literally reaching behind you, and pulling a steaming brown pile of assumptions and passing it off as your expert opinion. On this subject, you are out of your league.





To jasper: You and pie are very similar in your ignorance. However, I have a great deal more respect for pie than yourself. The reason being is that pie, although he's damn wrong on near every issue, is willing to go out in the trenches and genuinely defend what he believes. He may be irrational and ignorant, but I'll give credit where credit is due: He's actually man enough to confront the ideas he sees as false.

You on the other hand, display the greatest of cowardice by sniping with your petty insults when the story is about to be taken off the newsroll. You are just too downright incompetent to even attempt to defend whatever crap you're peddling.

You were so bored by my comments you felt inclined to reply. BS. Do you know what happens when people read things they find boring? They move on. You're an angry little man who can't find anything of substance to criticize in my posts, so you snipe at me with your juvenile insults. Man up.
12/7/2010 7:07:16 PM
spooner19 says:
I haven't filled up in town for over a year now. I go across the border to Grand Portage and fill up once a week, they also allow you to bring one 5 gallon gas can across its well worth the beautiful drive. I also do most of my shopping on line now also with the dollar almost at par theres great deals out there. Its $2 dollars a parcel at Grand Portage and there gas is always a bit cheaper than Rydens. Its too bad that i have to spen my money in the U.S. but you know what "Too Bad" i'm tired of getting ripped off here and like other people have said on here i will never fill up at a local gas station again here i'll walk before i do that.
12/8/2010 1:22:30 AM
stargill70 says:
its just gonna get worse. im glad i got rid of my truck and car and got a hum-v. just kidding. im glad i got no car. its just a money pit.
12/9/2010 7:37:15 AM
LittleOne87 says:
Boycotting purchasing gas is not a solution, it will not help to quit your job, then tax payers have to pay for you to go on other means of payment, unfortunately as the economy grows prices go up, its going to happen, this is why every year minimum wage goes up, the cost of living goes up, the cost of gas goes up, grocery prices, etc. Maybe someone shoud do something about that, OHHH wait because the price is not displayed in everyones plain sight its apparently un noticed! On my salary it is hard to make a decent living but unfortunately people need to suck it up and deal with it. The increase in the price for anything will always occur.
12/9/2010 9:29:02 AM
george2000 says:
so chezhank who just ran for council, gets his gas and other supplies from the states.

was this what you were offering to the people of Neebing?

12/9/2010 10:43:45 AM
trevor99 says:
i drove past one of T.Bay's famous double double establishments.

Long before it snowed today and while it was a very warm morning, almost 20 cars were lined up at the drive through but people want to complain about the price of gas.

I am not happy about it, but I will drive less. Use less. That will bring the price down.
12/9/2010 5:48:27 PM
chezhank says:
@george2000.....yes,service at reasonable cost!
12/9/2010 9:17:23 PM
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