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2012-04-19 at 15:33

Picking sides

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
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The debate for the future home of the proposed event centre continues across the city and online.

The two most popular locations for the event centre have remained downtown Port Arthur and Innova Park, while third option – property near the Thunder Bay airport – remains largely ignored.

Johnny De Bakker created the Facebook page Citizens for a Downtown North Core Multiplex more than a year ago and so far more than 900 people have signed up. 

He said he created the group so likeminded people could have a discussion on the proposed spot. De Bakker pointed out some of the members aren’t in favour of downtown Port Arthur and are using the page as a way to voice their opposition.

For him, the choice is obvious.

“We’re looking for a long term solution not just a band aid solution,” De Bakker said. “We’re looking at what benefits the city as a whole. There was that open house in the last couple of weeks where they showed the economic spin off of this and (downtown Port Arthur) was hands down, no question the best spot.”

One of the main concerns around Port Arthur has been the availability of parking. De Bakker admitted that it is an issue but it is being resolved.

De Bakker said he wasn’t sure if they would take their fight for downtown Port Arthur to the next step but right now they have the Facebook page where people can continue to discuss the issue.

“At the end of the day, people who don’t want to walk three blocks to the arena aren’t going to change their minds,” he said. “Once you have tickets to an event you are going to go. You are going to find somewhere to park.”

Those in favour of Innova Park haven’t been quiet either.

Advocates for that site started their own Facebook page about a week ago called Citizens for an Innova Park Multiplex.

The page has more than 460 members so far.

Thunder Bay Mayor Keith Hobbs is a member of both groups, while councillors Andrew Foulds, Trevor Giertuga, Paul Pugh, Joseph Virdiramo and Aldo Ruberto are members exclusively to the downtown Port Arthur group.

But the page is just one of the ways advocates are spreading their message.

Ray Smith has taken his lobby efforts to the streets, and has handed out thousands of pamphlets in support of Innova Park.

Most of the reaction he has gotten has been positive, he said.

“We’re just trying to help the public express their opinions,” Smith said.

“Everywhere I go in town everybody says Innova Park. I just thought we should give them a little push for their cause and have Innova Park truly be represented as a site for this new multiplex whenever we can afford to build one.”

Smith said he would like to have a sign in Innova Park advertising the fact that the event centre should go there, but he added that the Fort William Gardens still had some life left in it.

He said the gardens could continue to host events for the city for at least another 10 years.

He added that they should wait until the taxpayers can afford the event centre before they go ahead and build it.

Innova Park is a more central location compared to the proposed North downtown site, and that’s what appeals to Smith. Four access points and the opportunity to develop property at no extra cost are also selling features of that location.

The decision of where the event centre will go rests on the shoulders of city council but Smith suggested the city should put the matter to a vote.

Whether Innova Park wins the event centre or not, Smith said he would be at least satisfied that he had a chance to vote on it.

“I think it would be well in the best interest of the city to have everybody put it to a vote,” he said. “Then we could all live with the decision.”

Consultants on the project will be bringing a report on their preferred site to city council in June.


 

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Comments

We've improved our comment system.
tbaygal27 says:
My opinion is that the Pool 6 location should be cleaned up and the multiplex be built there. This is not an option because it is too costly to remediate the land. When is it ever going to be cheaper to clean up this industrial wasteland beside our beautiful marina?
4/19/2012 3:47:59 PM
hockeyskates says:
RE-ZONE INNOVA PARK FOR HOUSING. It would generate $ Millions of Dollars in new taxes. Quit trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.



4/20/2012 10:30:09 AM
Common cents says:
yes it would

But a downtown north core events center would actually reduce our tax dollars.

And new hotels and new restaurants will increase them.
4/20/2012 11:01:54 PM
hockeyskates says:
Whoa Common Cents. You posted 12 times on this story already. We get it. You don't want the rink in the North Side.

Pace yourself. There is not going to be a decision on this for a long time. As the City Commissioner has said at least 100 Times. "No money no rink"
4/20/2012 10:56:17 AM
ibrando says:
Kinda looks like Ray Smith to me. Anyway go Ray/Roy, Innova Park all the way!
4/19/2012 3:54:30 PM
Tom Sanderson says:
Where the hell is Port Arthur?
4/19/2012 3:55:19 PM
hockeyskates says:
Ibrando: Its on the north side of Thunder Bay.

Where the hell is Innova Park ? ...............crickets....................
4/19/2012 4:24:16 PM
Chaos says:
I agree...put it to a vote!!
4/19/2012 4:03:25 PM
hockeyskates says:
1) Innova Park.

2) Marina Park area

3) The Marina Park Area
4/19/2012 4:31:55 PM
Common cents says:
Just doing a little consulting free of charge.

John Labatt Centre in London Ontario (2005)
$500 000 per year over 10 years. 5 million

Waterfront BIA Events Centre in Thunder Bay Ontario (2016) $800 000 per year over 10 years. 8 million

Want to borrow my pen?
4/19/2012 7:12:18 PM
Ring of Fire Dude says:
hockeyskates: You forgot the 4th option 4) Cant afford at this time .
4/20/2012 6:05:05 AM
keiths31 says:
That made me laugh...
4/20/2012 8:04:15 AM
edhtbon says:
No matter what side you prefer, it is great residents are getting involved. Too often, the city seeks input on projects, and receives little response making it difficult for the city to best plan for the people. If we all participate, it should help bridge the city's vision and what residents want and we should all be better off in the end.
4/19/2012 4:13:00 PM
truthseeker says:
Innova and downtown port arthur may be the popular locations but the popular decision is not to build the multiplex at all.

900 and 460 are pathetic and quite embarrassing facebook numbers for the building of a new multiplex .

And to Ray 'Sign Man' Smith, this city council,city administration and the thunder bay media fear a plebiscite, they know if there is the option of not building the multiplex on the plebiscite- the innova and downtown port arthur sites will lose and lose big.




4/19/2012 4:21:15 PM
panzerIV says:
To be completely honest. The only place I have heard not to build this is on this website and the odd person at a open house.

Based on what I've heard from people I play hockey with, friends and overhearing conversations is that this is a location issue and not a do we want it issue. I heard more "build the damn thing" then no, don't build it
4/19/2012 4:31:00 PM
TBDR says:
How many people are in the "Don't build it" page? Also FYI, our current mayor had something like 1400 people in his group and beat two established candidates by at least 6000 votes. Facebook numbers can show a trend, but they aren't necessarily indicative of total support.
4/20/2012 10:15:59 AM
Delbert Grady says:
This is a classic "divide and conquer" technique in action.

The powers that have taken over this city which are hell bent on building a multiplex for their friends have not so cleverly concocted a war amongst the citizens of Thunder Bay.

The people are so concerned about the location, they are forgetting about the simple fact that it is a financial disaster.

So well the weaker minded people argue amongst themselves, the thieves in the night come and pick your pocket. Its pretty bush league really, but thats why its working so well in Thunder Bay.

Even our media is in on it. They publish stories like this one because they perhaps have some personal love for sporting events, or the simple fact that this type of controversy creates articles that almost write themselves.

So, keep a tight grip on your wallet folks because theres evil people who are doing their best to take it from you.

Every consultant knows you create 3 options, 1 loser, 2 viables then force the outcome.
4/19/2012 4:26:31 PM
Common cents says:
Politics at it best, there was a letter to the editor put up 4/16/2012

It never lasted long after I basiclly replyed Its a lie it was removed.



WELL WRITTEN???? BUT NOT TRUE!!!!!

+Government/News+$!26+Strategic+Initiatives/docs/Renew+Thunder+Bay+Report+to+Council+Nov.+23$!2c+2009.pdf

This is a quote from the city of Thunder Bay website. “The City of Thunder Bay’s Renewal Plan identifies opportunities to enhance and grow our downtown cores -- including the downtown south core as the business district and downtown north core as the entertainment district."

PLEASE TELL US WHAT PAGE THIS STATEMENT WAS FOUND?

Then read these parts:

Strategic Considerations & Criteria for Projects
Page 8:•improve the quality of life on a City-wide basis.

Project Summary
Project Name:
Multi-Purpose Event Centre (Multiplex)
Page 19:•Increase community pride,

The City can realize substantial economic benefits from a multi-use spectator event centre, such as:• A facility to attract private sector development and redevelopment such as new accommodations, restaurants and retail stores!
4/19/2012 6:37:44 PM
Common cents says:
Vision - is the development of an Event Centre at this location consistent with the overall long-term vision of the City and its pattern of strategic growth? ?????

Which location are you talking about?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Complementary Benefits - does development of this site enhance the neighbouring area or context?

In Innova park yes with highway exposure and the need for naming rights,20000 vehicles pass the location on a daily basis
And with future growth the tax base increase from hotels and restaurants will have a much needed to our city.
4/19/2012 6:53:29 PM
Common cents says:
Ease of Development - are there issues or costs associated with the development of this particular site? Are there environmental issues that impact the development process?

Innova park yes, during your presentation you stated the need put a new traffic light at the expressway and central.

That would be totally unnecessary, all the would be needed would be is a in ramp and out ramp just like they put on the harbour extension.
4/19/2012 6:54:41 PM
Common cents says:
Access - is this site easily accessible from a vehicular, pedestrian, and transit (current and future) perspective? Are improvements/modifications required to support the site?

Innova park yes,
Vehicular: within a 10mins from almost anywhere in the city limits,
Pedestrian: northwood area , central ave area, and new area north of the hospital
no demolition or the current bus depot would be required
no need to build a new depot would be required in the north side
4/19/2012 6:55:41 PM
Common cents says:
Parking - how much parking is required for each site to support the event centre? Is there existing parking in the area that can be reasonably used to accommodate demands? Can parking be added?

Innova park: has more than enough room for parking
and when the time comes that more retail land be needed in Innova park it would be very easy to add more levels to the parking if needed in 30 years from now.
Water front: has limited parking available now and with future growth it will even become more of an issue.
:As stated by the Water Front BIA president stores and offices are moving in the area along with the law school in the former PACI which will only increase the parking problems already in existence the downtown north core.

Can parking be added? it could but at a huge cost to the tax payer.
if a private hotel would like to add a parade to its plans for a new hotel that would be their own venture not the tax payer
4/19/2012 7:01:34 PM
Common cents says:
Cost impact - are there issues associated with the development of the site that result in higher project or construction costs?

Innova park: very little as I stated before there would be no need for a traffic light on the Expressway all that would be required is a “similar in and out ramp” such as they did on the harbour extension.

Waterfront: very much so, It would require the demolition of the existing bus terminal, as well as the cost to build a new one which it think was in the 7 to 10 million dollar range for a central location, with that in mind the city would only require to build one for the south side lowering the cost considerably.
4/19/2012 7:04:01 PM
Common cents says:
Economic impact - does the development of this site have an enhanced economic impact for the City and Region?

Yes very much so:

Waterfront : short term yes but this city has to be looking term. which ever team that calls the new arena home will need support from the whole city, which includes the areas that continue to expand most towards the south and west, having a centrally located arena is the only way a team will be able to survive.

Innova Park will have a very long term economic impact, It will allow the city to increase its tax base by at minimum 100% as compared to the water front. it works with future growth of the city as stated above. It will be the gateway to the city as travellers come in from the west. For the future all things are positive about this site long term, 10,20, 30 ,and 100 years from now.
4/19/2012 7:05:33 PM
panzerIV says:
Ugh common cents. I just have to ask if you were at the last open house.

Waterfront -> Good economic stimulus in the short term and long term

Innova -> None in the short term and the possibility of medium in the long term. Long term is (5-10 years away). It could turn out that it sits there by itself with bucky building and environment Canada.

A arena on its own will not succeed because it needs to be part of a bigger picture. It needs to have a 'critical mass' where the building is helping those around it and they are helping it. (from the consultants)

Of the 3 brownfield sites the consultant knew in Ontario. 2 of them had none-little economic spin off and lost money. The third only got development around it because of its location and not the arena complex.

The downtown sites had much higher economic stimulus, some of them even made money. Like the John Labatt center which revitalized london's downtown.

In the NHL only 5 teams don't have a arena downtown.
4/20/2012 1:49:28 PM
baor says:
Common cents are you done yet? Holy cow!
4/20/2012 2:50:53 PM
Common cents says:
City Building - does this site enhance the process of "city-building" by contributing to economic growth, quality of life, citizen satisfaction and community pride?

Innova park: the site will be the gate way to the city for tourist and travellers from the west, and will pull the community together as one great city. Citizens of Thunder bay and the surrounding areas will have great pride in this building as more than 20000 vehicles pass this location daily.

Waterfront will only continue the PA and FW issue for, once our elected city council has to make a decision that put an end to this and not just say yes to the Waterfront BIA.
4/19/2012 7:07:47 PM
baor says:
Like most conspiracy theorists out there, you have no proof of this "cleverly concocted" war amongst the citizens of Thunder Bay and no matter the evidence to the contrary you will never be able to be convinced otherwise.
A true definition of a conspiracy theorist if I ever saw one has manifested itself in you.
From an obnoxious blow-hard to a Jessie Ventura episode...too funny.
Do you really truely believe that persons conspired, and drew up a plan to create a battle over where to build a rink? In Thunder Bay?
This is not a controversy at all. It is a simple debate over a site of a proposed building which I am sure most people would welcome.
Of course you will likely provide some sort of made up statistics showing otherwise. If you are in fact the "boss" of some sort of "consulting company" who in their right mind would solicit your "advice" when in your mind the sky is always falling.
Oh yah .... go Down Town P.A.!!!
4/19/2012 7:21:45 PM
anvil of crom says:
delb miester, wow for once i agree.
The smoke and mirrors game is being held by the powers that be , and the plebs are running amok, divided and conquered.
4/19/2012 10:33:05 PM
countrychick says:
I don't have a strong opionon either way each location to me has pretty much equal pros and cons.... Innova park- parking maybe easier, centeral location but there is nothing aroung there no restaurants or bars etc you would pretty much go to an event and go home maybe to tim hortons for a coffee.... Water street- harder to park there and not centerally located and you may have to walk a bit from your car to center, but it has lots of restaurants bars etc around there more to do.. I have no idea where to put it .all i know is we do need a new events center the gardens is old and the location is aweful ...
4/19/2012 4:35:56 PM
tavares says:
With all the development going on at the waterfront anywhere else would make no sense at all. If you are not going to build it near the waterfront, do not build it at all. The multiplex should help support neighbouring business, Innova park has none.
4/19/2012 4:38:28 PM
Common cents says:
I totally disagree with you, The water front is already a feature attraction. But the main tenant will be a hockey team and will need the support of the entire city, and it WILL NOT GET IT in the north core downtown area.
The downtown area will not increase the tax base of our city, it will actually decease it.

4/19/2012 6:22:58 PM
youngintbay says:
I agree with tbaygal27 all the way. Pool 6 location. Nevermind the water street bus terminal and Innova Park. You old farts need to get your head out of something and stop complaining about change and start voting for something right. Specially your not going to be around much longer even to see the new Multiplex.
4/19/2012 4:40:31 PM
tannharr says:
We have managed for years, not having a sprawling parking lot for the Fort William Gardens. We managed to find parking within a walking distance, on the side streets, and in private parking lots. Why can't we continue the same in the downtown north core location? Have we all gotten that much more lazy over the last 50 years?

It needs to be built in the downtown north core! Building it at Innova Park will only worsen traffic congestion, as there will be no incentive to take alternate means of transportation. It will also worsen our downtown core, as nobody will attend restaurants or pubs before/after the events. Even if new businesses were built around Innova Park, it does nothing to help the downtown core. Building the event centre downtown WILL revitalize the core and make it safer and beautiful once again.

As for the plebiscite, that's a ridiculous waste of time and money! We elect officials to make important decisions on our behalf. Let them do their jobs!!!
4/19/2012 5:14:36 PM
Delbert Grady says:
Who is "we"? Who elected you spokesman? What group of "we" are you from? Are you even a municipal tax payer residing in Thunder Bay?

Now, with that out of the way... why are you so afraid of a plebescite? "We" didnt elect people to make a decision on this issue. I dont think it was even a topic brought up in the debates? So, dont go rushing to put the cart before the horse.

You claim that a plebescite would be a "ridiculous waste of time and money" but in reality how much would it cost? $100K?

Well, how about people like you agree to pay for the plebescite before any more time and money are wasted. Then if it met approval, then these discussions could move forward. Til then we are wasting money and time...

...all for a building that will cost an already agreed upon $1million per year LOSS just to remain open.

So if youre really worried about wasting tax dollars, youd be against this whole project.

...but youre not.

guess what that makes you?
4/20/2012 12:16:15 PM
patti says:
I support the P.A. Location ~
Parking, parking, parking, blah blah blah ~ Good grief people, there's facilities across North America built smack in the middle of downtown area's which are 3-4 times bigger as the one there proposing in Port Arthur, how are they managing those ???
Take a look at the MTS Center in Winnipeg for example (3 times bigger)

GEEZ .... If you're incapable of walking distances, get dropped off at the front entrance, BIG DEAL !! ~ and if you're the person driving incapable of walking distances ~ contact Jenny Craig.

4/19/2012 5:16:53 PM
Common cents says:
Good point smack in the MIDDLE of the city.

So you can draw crowds from the WHOLE CITY.
4/20/2012 6:28:21 PM
Big Joe Mufferaw says:
@hockeyskates...

Love the three choices for the plebescite...that's how we ended up being Thunder Bay instead of The Lakehead or Lakehead City...but still very good choices...

Big Joe...
4/19/2012 5:19:06 PM
The Wolf says:
The way I see it the only people that want it in the Port Arthur downtown core are the ones that are going to somehow benefit financially from it or they are a complete moron.
4/19/2012 5:31:17 PM
jb says:
If that's the way you see it, you should try opening your eyes a bit.
4/20/2012 3:22:45 PM
tannharr says:
We have managed for years, not having a sprawling parking lot for the Fort William Gardens. We managed to find parking within a walking distance, on the side streets, and in private parking lots. Why can't we continue the same in the downtown north core location? Have we all gotten that much more lazy over the last 50 years?

It needs to be built in the downtown north core! Building it at Innova Park will only worsen traffic congestion, as there will be no incentive to take alternate means of transportation. It will also worsen our downtown core, as nobody will attend restaurants or pubs before/after the events. Even if new businesses were built around Innova Park, it does nothing to help the downtown core. Building the event centre downtown WILL revitalize the core and make it safer and beautiful once again.

As for the plebiscite, that's a ridiculous waste of time and money! We elect officials to make important decisions on our behalf. Let them do their jobs!!!
4/19/2012 5:33:22 PM
yqtyqt says:
I don't know what the "we" is all about in his comments.

Isn't this they guy who moved out of thunder bay for a better job & money?

I rather put my faith in the real citizens of thunder bay who have lived here a lifetime, & not who live here sometimes and leave when the grass is greener somewhere else.

Give me a break. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. But if you leave when times are tough, then you'll do so when taxes go through the roof as well.

Ask timmy what the infrastucture deficit is. Ask him what he would do in terms of the priorities of everyday citizens, not just the sports & entertainment crowd, and not just the north ward merchants.

Do the right thing timmy, tell council that there are streets to be paved, policing issues to be addressed. Tell council about the demographics of thunder bay and the ability to pay.

With recent BMA studies, you know the right answer. Not the politically right thing to do.

Gas this project or put it to a plebiscite.
4/20/2012 10:11:39 AM
tannharr says:
Yes, I moved to Kenora, but not for myself, but for my wife. We didn't move for a better job OR for more money. We moved for a temporary job offer with my wife's company. All of which is really none of anyone's business, but have provided you with that information just for clarification. We didn't leave Thunder Bay when times were "tough", cuz they weren't tough. We had a good life in Thunder Bay, and it wasn't an easy decision to leave.

I grew up in Thunder Bay, have paid property taxes, and have joined volunteer groups such Opportunity Thunder Bay. The grass isn't exactly greener in Kenora.

When I say "we", I'm referring to the people of Thunder Bay that have used the FWG facility for the last 5 decades. When I say "we", I'm referring to the citizens of Thunder Bay, current and future, that will be using this facility, and paying for it through their tax dollars.

We will be moving back home eventually, and when we do, we want it to be the same great city as when we left
4/20/2012 1:37:27 PM
homelessteen says:
A quote from the "Skill Change" article

"Still, people need to be cautious with the numbers. The fact that the median income is $30,000 still means that 50 per cent of workers in Thunder Bay are making less than that".

Who exactly are we building this event center for?

Here is an idea build it in Oliver or Shuniah and raise their taxes.
4/19/2012 6:18:46 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
I'm still waiting to see the feasibility study.
4/19/2012 6:18:52 PM
crankypants says:
building the centre downtown will cause so much mess and disruption. many people dont even know where innova park is so maybe putting it there will bring the city together rather then it seeming like two different places, port arthur and fort william. like someone else posted, what about the TBCA, grandview arena, fort william gardens and other places?

the optimal plan would be to rip thunder bay off the map and start over!
4/19/2012 6:35:34 PM
arjay says:
A plebicite, asking, if you are, or , are not in favour of a complex at this time would surely point us in the right direction. in the meantime, all this site blathering is hot air!!!
4/19/2012 7:01:05 PM
outsider9 says:
I am all for a new arena, and I think it should be on the waterfront/downtown. I do however think that before it gets built, someone needs to find a major tenant for it (OHL, WHL, ECHL) the thunderwolves just aren't going to do it....
4/19/2012 7:10:34 PM
monicker says:
I feel like the City of Thunder Bay has a similar attitude to a celluar or TV company.

They are very focused at attracting new customers / citizens. They attempt to offer bigger better services but forget they already have an established customer base.

Please don't build a multiplex. Focus on all the run down infrastructure. Focus on education and research. Focus on what industry is still alive.

Provide for the existing citizens. The fact that we need food banks and that kids go hungry here in Thunder Bay is more important then our ability to attract shows. Please think about social assistance before thinking about social entertainment.

If you think Thunder Bay needs a new hockey rink don't support this project. Support a project for a new hockey rink. Educate yourself before you decide to pick a location and support it.

1. Innova Park
2. Marina Park
3. No Park

Pick option 3.

4/19/2012 7:34:31 PM
JerBear88 says:
I still there should be more options.i like to see it built right in the middle of Winnipeg Ave between the Canada Games Complex and Port Arthur Arena. You can attach to the Arena for a second ice surface and to the Complex for a complete sports centre. There lots of future parking with development of the limited used baseball diamonds close by. You have bus routes already in place and it would be easier for College and University students to walk. We have lots of established restaurants and hotels close by so why not support them. The Auditorium could be attached by glass walkways and we could develop one great central arts and sports entertainment location. This is just an ideal to prove we have other options to explore!
4/19/2012 7:35:52 PM
Rbosch says:
It is awful nice of Mr. Smith to place propaganda supporting his position on peopls' windshields, but I will reserve judgement on that propaganda until after I have had a chance to review it myself. Interesting that the leaflets are the same lime green colout that was used b;y the FOMP folks last year; perhaps it is left over along with their shirts. The Group numbers for either Facebook Group are misleading. For some strange reason, Facebook now includes a person as a Group member, even though they have only been invited and not if they have accepted the invite. Of the reported 465 members in their totals, 363 are "invited", so their real membership is 102. This was brought to the attention of the Innova Group some time ago, so they might correct it somehow. The Downtown Group also has a number of "invites" but no where near that of the Innova Group. As far as a plebiscite goes, I have not preblem with the idea, but the question should only be "whether or not we should build".
4/19/2012 8:58:33 PM
tsb says:
A multiplex in Innova Park would be one white elephant propping up another. I think the multiplex was only dreamed up by Administration to make it look like something would happen to Innova Park, when nothing is really going to happen to it.

Innova Park was a mistake. If it hasn't been started, that area would be full of tax paying houses by now.
4/19/2012 10:19:57 PM
tbay99 says:
I bet the majority of the people in favour of this complex are same people that complain about rising taxes. Do people not realize they have to PAY for this stupid thing?!
4/19/2012 11:21:00 PM
TBayGuitard says:
I feel building this multiplex downtown near the marina is another band-aid solution to an already deteriorated downtown. The bars and restaurants there want to believe in benefiting from foot traffic business...but it's only generated when there is an event. There's nowhere to park and the foot traffic will just keep on walking by hoping not to get mugged along the way. Really what's there now worth stopping in for? Gargoyles and The Prospector are nice. Crock's n' Rolls? Upper Deck?? Black Pirates Pub?? Kilroys?? Apollo??

Innova Park is a solution for the future. More new development will come if the multiplex is built there. Any new development in the downtown north core will come at the expense of a tear down of a historic building.
4/19/2012 11:24:48 PM
wayne says:
well said Delbert.
4/19/2012 11:26:29 PM
eastender says:
I think something is rotten in Den...er Thunder Bay, City Hall. Its the old shell game again. Suckers fall for it every time. Innova Park? Marina Paark? Innova Park? Marina Park. But the answer is really NO PARK!!! You suckers you know who you are. OR DO YOU?
4/19/2012 11:56:29 PM
wayne says:
why are people bickering over the location for something that has not yet been approved for the next funding proposal phase? the city council and admin. will screw us and future generations with the 'multi-tax' centre.
4/20/2012 12:03:02 AM
Steven says:
We are being given a choice between two shiny cars we can't afford. The rabble of this city are all saying: "Oh! The red one!" or "THE BLUE ONE!" and very few people are looking in their wallet and realizing that they have no money to pay for the car, and in fact already owe more money than it would cost to buy either of those cars.

Folks, our economy in this city is based off federal and provincial funding. From Bombardier trains for Toronto, to the Hospital to lakehead, to various government offices, most of our jobs are paid for by the taxpayer, and the taxpayer is cutting us off right now with each passing budget.

Our city is in massive debt. Our streets and infrastructure are tens of millions in arrears, and we are already taxing citizens at one of the highest rates in the country.

SO.... why aren't we presenting the citizens with the third option: NO EVENTS CENTRE UNTIL WE GET OUR FINANCIAL HOUSE IN ORDER.

4/20/2012 12:17:32 AM
today says:
If building a new multiplex is because the Gardens is falling apart, councilors and administration need to visit the rest of the local arenas around town and check the condition of the facilities. They are all over 40+ years old and are presently just being bandaided for repairs, and quickly coming to an end of their longevity. In 10 yrs we will need 5 new arenas. The Tournament Centre has been neglected as well, and needs money spent on it.. These building are just metal frames with metal siding, the Gardens is made of concrete. We'll be looking at another 100 million dollar bill soon, and "they" will just close them like the Conservatory.

The taxpayers need to hire a consultant, and present the findings to Administration and Council without bias.
4/20/2012 1:04:20 AM
today says:
About the location...I go to a lot of hockey games, and have spoken to a lot of people who do as well. Over the past year, no one who is an avid fan agrees with the Waterfront location (that I've spoken to). Parking within 3 blocks, should put me at Red River and Court, where does this 3 block thing come from, Tim?)....try 13 blocks away.
Yes, it's more than hockey, but I visit the Gardens more than 50 times a year. Some concert goers/event people will probably make the trip a few times per year, who are you listening to.
Anyways, the location has always been predetermined, just poilitcal motions,just my opinion, enough said.
4/20/2012 1:24:36 AM
Chaos says:
tavares: what development do you speak of? THe splash pad and skating pond? That is all that I see at the waterfront, plus a few holes in the ground + it is all paid for with public money.

Multiplex at waterfront makes sense if I need a cash advance before the game and also want to buy some weed or a date after it...the legitimate merchants downtown are always changing and typically low brow type operations...just look at the empty buldings, cheap signage and turnover. Enough with funding groups that can't make it on their own.
4/20/2012 7:51:51 AM
jb says:
Can't get much more ignorant than that.
4/20/2012 3:36:44 PM
drdolittle says:
Who's going to use this multiplex is my contention? Given our stellar record with keeping professional and semi-professional sports teams in town. I assume that the Thunderwolves will make this their new home ice. This must be the Multiplex of Dreams, "If you build it, they will come".
4/20/2012 8:27:12 AM
yqt says:
INNOVA PARK FAILED ONCE ALREADY, LET'S NOT MAKE IT TWICE. I can't fricken understand why the heck people have interest in that location. If anything, it should be turned into a residential development. Innova Park is comparable to the FW Gardens; there is nothing close by for restaurants/bars or lodging. Perfect example of why not to build it there.

Pool 6 will never work. There is too much of a bottleneck entering/exiting that location because of the railroad to the west, and Lake Superior to the east.

I can't 100% support downtown PA either, until that dump called the Shoreline is torn down. What an eyesore. Till then, don't build it anywhere.
4/20/2012 8:47:56 AM
Knowledge Worker says:
My vote goes to not building it...We can't afford it and it's guaranteed to lose money. Maybe if it gets built whoever goes to see an event should pay more per ticket to cover the cost so it is user fee based. Would you pay $150-200 a ticket to see the Thunder Wolves? At $80M for this thing(without operating losses), every man, woman, and child would have to fork over at least $723 or roughly $1860 per household in taxes to pay straight up. In a town where seniors complain about keeping the heat on they can't afford another tax increase. Also, if it goes to a vote, people who have more living years left in the City (i.e. people under 50), their votes should have a multiplier effect as they are effectively paying the bulk of the load. Perhaps those involved in the decision should put their house up as a line of credit if it goes south to offset the losses like a business would. If it does get built, any other location other than PA would be a mistake. We don't need 4 downtowns!
4/20/2012 9:14:56 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
This is terrible. What they really want is a hockey rink. But Senior Gov'ts won't kick in a dime. We all know that. So to LIE, and pretend it's "convention-entertainment centre" is, frankly, lame and pathetic. Think others are too stoopid to see this? City Hall, quit working for the Chamber of Commerce, and start working for the people.
4/20/2012 9:17:44 AM
collie says:
AGAIN!!!!!!

I ask Why?? are we deciding on a location for a facility that Isn't suppose to be built for at least another 3 years??? Nevermind the fact the design of and main use of facility! IE (hockey arena, convention centre)

Here is a question in the near future (next 2 years) What new land will become available to build on???

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!! I think when we are at the time to START looking for property to build the facility IS when we should be deciding on Location! Lots can change in 3 years, So lets not commit to a decision now that WILL turn around and be another mistake. Nevermind spending more and more taxpayers Money on all these expenses NOW!
4/20/2012 11:23:17 AM
REG says:
If this complex is not built in the Marina Park God help us all! The rastaurants and bars going into the North side of town with the 175 million dollar Marina and people want it in Innova park. Look at other cities and see where these complexs are being errected. Where is the Mayor on this issue,start leading put this to rest. Marina park or don't build it!!!
4/20/2012 12:57:41 PM
Jon Powers says:
FYI:

To All!

The last time the City of Thunder Bay wanted this type of project it was to be placed at the Central Ball Diamond Fields.

1992-4.

I have no doubt that the Core of Thunder Bay will win out again!

Love all the Posts!

Great Story!
Keep Up The Great Work !
tbnewswatch.com
4/20/2012 2:03:49 PM
homelessteen says:
quote from letter to the editor feb 28 2012
I wonder if it is the same Ray Smith?

"With administration pushing for a new multiplex near the waterfront at the site of the current north ward bus terminal, and unlimited funds for the waterfront, city taxpayers can expect more of the same:?higher taxes, fewer services and no substantial reduction on the city’s debt that is close to $200 million, and a waterfront project that is very questionable.

Ray Smith,
Thunder?Bay
4/20/2012 3:55:08 PM
CLETE says:
You better believe it should be built on the marina site. If this city screws this up there is no hope. To the so called leaders of this city start leading and put this areana on the marina. Wake up TBAY and lets do the right thing.
4/20/2012 4:23:37 PM
newshound says:
People please, our new Waterfront is the biggest mess this city has contributed too. First off, have you seen the two gaping holes in the ground next to the old CN Station? Wait now, it will be 2-4 years before the condos or hotel goes up, so why the big holes in the ground... oh, so we know where they will be built in 2-4 years from now.. The skating rink already had problems with overheating, the new building on the waterfront has cracked floors.. what's the cost to fix that? We elected these fools on council, so in 2014, lets make sure this kind of crap doesn't happen again..I say we elect a total new council, have a plebiscite and we all get a say!!! Yes we elected this present council, but hey we all make mistakes, this time we are learning the hard way, the Waterfront is our first mistake, lets not let this council make the biggest mistake ever.. a new event centre squashed into a dead down town core!! I vote for change in the next election to correct this fiasco!
4/21/2012 1:41:26 PM
newshound says:
I just reread this link and I have to say RBOSCH, I was added to the citizens for a down town north core event centre and I do not support that group, nor was I asked to join, my name was thrown in. I however, did ask to join Innova Park.

So before you spout your opinions that the groups are tainted, I will say one thing, at least the group for Innova Park lets people speak and have their say in the group, no one is bashed or trashed as they are in the other group. I have remained a INVITEE in the down town group and I have seen comments such as " I hope the Shoreline fails to pay their taxes so the city can grab that property for a down town parkade" No where in the Innova group has anyone tried to bash a local business like the down town group. How insensitive are people in your group, they wish a local business, (apparently not one they want to see continue to operate in our city) You keep saying the down town will help keep businesses open, yet you want one local business to fail.
4/21/2012 1:48:52 PM
RBosch says:
@ newshound. I am not "spouting" anything at all. My post clearly stated that both Groups' totals are incorrect, as BOTH have people who have been INVITED shown as members. In reality, you DO NOT belong to a group until you have accepted an invitation to join, so you are an INVITEE in the Downtown Group, because one of your "friends" invited you. It was and remains your choice to either join, or not join a group, so you wee NOT added to the Downtown Group. If you are so set against the Group, please feel free to decline the invite. I guess that is the point of my post isn't it. Both Group Totals are incorrect, but I took the time to actually count them and hence it it not an opinion, it is fact. There were 102 actual members of the Innova Group, not 465, as reported. How can you say that ta group does not let a person "speak" when you then go on to demonstrate that someone DID speak, even though you do not agree with the posting, which, by the way,...cont;d.


4/21/2012 7:41:06 PM
RBosch says:
Cont'd to @ newshound....I don't agree with that statement either, but the person who made it is entitled to his or her opinion, as were others who stated their opinion, but seemed a little overly sensitive to others disagreeing with their position. You should expect a great deal of opposition to a contrary opinion if you come on a group that is entitled "Citizesn for a Downtown North Core Event Centre." By the way, it is ONE big gaping hole at Prince Arthurs Landing and not two, but it would be there, in preparation for construction. The deadline is that constuction must be started within 2 years and must be completed within 5, so you may be out to lunch on that one as well. I, being an optimist, believe that it will occur before the 2 year deadline, by hey, that is my opinion. You are welcome to yours.
4/21/2012 7:53:47 PM
Delbert Grady says:
What happened to my comment about how we should have a plebescite, but only people with tax bills in their names actually get to vote? (since they're the ones paying for this mess)

Was that too hard hitting? Did it go outside the "guidelines"...

...or was it just an uncomfortable fact?
4/21/2012 8:27:35 PM
credwards says:
Over the last 30 yrs a huge shift has occurred with people living in G-8 countries. People who were born prior to the second world war used to put aside at least 25 cents of their pay cheques into a savings account for emergencies & to voluntarily payoff loans, mortgage was only debt & obtaining personal credit was very difficult & expensive. People born after use at least 25 cents to finance their existing debt, have no personal savings and are easily approved for to much credit. Why don't the people running this city spend our tax dollars on fixing our aging infrastructure, finish projects that have already been started or approved and build new infrastructure to entice companies involved in the "ring of fire" to open up shop here and create higher paying jobs which will improve local economy vs. spending money the city doesn't have & forcing tax payers to pick up the tab on a new entertainment centre. People need to realize that money doesn't grow on Tree's!
4/25/2012 8:49:09 AM
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