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2012-04-30 at 21:48

Council ends golf debate by voting to close Municipal

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
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Rebate, Rebate, RebateRebates for just about everyone. $500 Graduate Rebate; $500 Loyalty Rebate; $500 Rebate for Active Military Personnel.www.thunderbaymitsubishi.ca

City council has voted to close the Municipal Golf Course by the end of the season.

Council voted 8-3 in favour of closing the Municipal Golf Course at the general meeting on Monday. Only councillors Andrew Foulds, Joe Virdiramo and Iain Angus voted to keep the golf course open.

Current River Coun. Foulds said the discussion has always been about recreation, quality of life and what the municipality provides for residents.  

“For me this issue is more than just golf it is a serious issue,” Foulds said prior to the vote. “I am very concerned about it and future of this municipality.”

At-Large Coun. Rebecca Johnson said she was prepared to close all three municipal run golf courses and even prepared a motion for council to vote on. She decided to wait for another time before pushing the matter further.

Thunder Bay Mayor Keith Hobbs pointed out that there has been a decline in people playing golf all across North America.

McIntyre Ward Coun. Trevor Giertuga said they would save $4 million over 20 years and $8 million over 40 years with the course closed.

“We have to be careful how we present things because they all add up,” Giertuga said. “I don’t like how we break things up and say things are going to cost five cents a day to run this or three cents. Our taxes keep going up. It all adds up.”

Concerned residents didnt make the decision any easier as they gave deputations on why council should keep the golf courses.

CUPE  Local 87 president Marie Dean told council that any closure or selling of city owned golf courses would likely result in the total abandonment of golf in the city within two years. Despite cutbacks over the years, the city has managed to keep golf active in the community, she said.

“CUPE knows that the loss of any of the three courses will have a negative, not positive outcome for recreational golf in this community,” Dean said. “CUPE is respectfully suggesting that you keep all the municipal golf courses open.”

Dean suggested council set up a committee made up of councillors, city administration, CUPE members and golfers to find ways to enhance operations and make all three courses fiscal viable.

Dean criticized council on the amount of money being spent on the waterfront project as well as the dollar amount proposed for the event centre. She asked how council could approve of those dollar figures but not allow less than $100,000 to subsidizing the golf course.

Jules Tupker, a former union president now retired, said he came as a golfer and echoed Dean’s comments on why the city shouldn’t close the municipal course.

He said he plays at all three golf courses but enjoys the municipal the most. He said city council isn’t in the business to make money but to provide services to residents.

“I am not an economic wizard but I do know that if making operation changes including increasing membership fees are resulting in a loss of memberships than perhaps I should be reassessing the changes,” Tupker said. “Divesting yourself of municipal golf course is wrong for so many reasons and I would respectfully suggest that you keep all three city run golf courses open.”

 

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Comments

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publicdomain says:
Many may not agree, but this is disappointing news. This is the end of my golfing at a city course and will take my business elsewhere.
4/30/2012 10:06:42 PM
shadow1326 says:
Thunder Bay is streching itself to far.
Instead of looking after what it has & promoting these tried & proven draws they are moving into to unknown areas.
If the base is strong then move ahead.
Is our base strong?
If the local people of Thunder Bay will or can not support all of these new projects because of cost or population we can not rely on outside numbers to do this.
5/1/2012 8:17:50 PM
Rbosch says:
In watching the process tonight, I was taken with the responses given by CUPE, the Lead Hand from Municipal and Mr. Tupker, when asked what they would do to reduce costs and all 3 rsponded with the key statement of "reduce the price to play and memberships will go up." Little imagination and all skirted the real issue. The cost of running all 3 courses is partially attributable to wage costs and none wanted to answer the question of what has changed since the 3 courses moved from being profitable to now being deficient. They didn't speak to the fact that originally, there were the 3 municipal courses and the 2 country clubs. Centennial came along and then others and it really comes down to how many courses can be supported in a city of this size. They all seemed to want to skirt the issue of whether the city should be in competition with Private industry and by subsidizing its operations, by referring back to the "reduce the rates and memberships will climb" routine.
4/30/2012 10:23:58 PM
Sandwiches1123 says:
This is the opinion that council should take seriously. The wages for all COTB employees is public and are released on job advertisements. Full-time Rangers make over $19.00 per hour and a Full-time "Clerk" (cashier) makes over $21.00 per hour.

Heck, Part-time Rangers and Clerks make over $15.00 per hour these days.

Maybe the City should be looking to have those wages reduced. If golf courses operate from the beginning of May to the middle of October, that effectively covers 5.5 months. If the full-time workers accepted a 15% wage reduction (making over $16/hr and $17/hr for the Ranger and Clerk position respectively) COTB could realize quite a bit of savings. Over $6.00/hr for 8 hours per day at roughly 165 days of golf for three courses. That saves at least $23,760.00. Why are creative solutions like this not being considered? Council realizes that the report they read last night does not consider the loss of revenue from memberships if a course is sold
5/1/2012 9:44:12 AM
compgah says:
The city is only going to save $100.000 a year by closing Municipal, really, why not look at Manageriel position, I'm sure we could save a lot more that way than closing the golf course, and after all's been said and done are Taxes will still go up noe matter what!
4/30/2012 10:29:32 PM
wayne says:
"McIntyre Ward Coun. Trevor Giertuga said they would save $4 million over 20 years and $8 million over 40 years with the course closed."

I thought municipal golf course was presently costing the city under $100K and not $200k per year?

And how much would we save in not building an event centre at a minimum of $100 million? 20 years of running at a projected annual deficit of $600k = $12 million. (not including costs to repair it)

Giertuga needs to take remedial grade 3 math.
4/30/2012 10:36:54 PM
tbay87 says:
While I've never been a huge fan of the city subsidizing golf, this is kind of disappointing since I really liked that course. In many ways Chappels is a superior course, but Municipal was nice just to get a quick, easy round in.

I hope they can at least see if there is any interest from the private sector in continuing to operate it as a golf course.
4/30/2012 10:40:07 PM
maxumpat says:
Wow! I hope they put the 100 grand saving to good use like more bike lane paint or maybe more fuel for the fire place at the skating rink. Maybe we can fix the roof at the conservatory.

The city will be out of debt in no time now....yes this is sarcasm and no I don't golf at Municipal.

You have to wonder though, after the conservatory, roller coaster, and now one golf course what could be next?

4/30/2012 10:44:21 PM
JerBear88 says:
So does this mean the City is also cutting our golf manager's huge salary by 33 per cent. What's next, Churchill and Volunteer Pool,Canada Games Complex,Centenial park,Chippiwa Park and the Conservatory?
4/30/2012 10:49:31 PM
happy gardener says:
Kudos to the eight who voted in favour of closure. It's about time they got it right. Congrats!!
I heard the word senior's many times in the deputations from the union, the lead hand and a former union man, now retired.
The question that came to mind was - did they survey these senior's to find out how many of them spent their winters south of the border?
I bet there are alot. They just come home in the summer for OHIP reasons, and the heat is unberable in southern states during the summer. Well, if they can afford a long winter vacation like many of them do, they can afford to pay the money for golf at privately run courses in the city. One down two to go......so those who are disappointed, take your business elsewhere, the sooner you golf elsewhere, the sooner the other 2 will be gone.
4/30/2012 10:49:32 PM
digdug76 says:
....and the sooner you learn how to use an apostrophe, the sooner you won't be using one on the word "seniors".

We waste a million dollars on flashing beacons, but 100k is too much for a golf course that caters well to beginners and the elderly.

Anyone you talk to will tell you that the city courses are GROSSLY overpriced and that's the reason business is down. It's no secret! Last year at the beginning of the season, Chapples greens were still full of aeration holes from the previous season. You couldn't putt on them worth beans. Yet was there any sort of discount? Nothing at all! I remember reading that a Father and Son went golfing at Chapples, paid over 80 dollars for green fees, 30 for a cart, 10 bucks for a couple hot dogs and pops....then ended up putting on plinko boards. $120 dollars for two people to play at Chapples, and the conditions were nothing close to acceptable.

I think we know where the problem lies.
4/30/2012 11:46:34 PM
SomeGuy says:
There was too much competition in that class of golf course. You can only support so many 9 hole easy golf courses.
4/30/2012 11:10:04 PM
hockeyskates says:
Thanks to Andrew Foulds, Joe Virdiramo, and Iain Angus for supporting this course.

In time we will know why it was sold. It wasn't the $100k a year.

Probably a real estate deal. So we may learn someday what multi millionaire wants to make another million by building houses here.

Too bad, I will miss it. The best part of playing that little course was listening to the seniors who just loved it because even in their final years they could get around Municipal's flat, short layout. Those burned out fairways always added 30 yards to their drives.

I have played many courses in many countries, but this little track had a special vibe. Always relaxed, never rushed. An unhurried walk with people who had memories of what this town was 50 years ago.

I played it recently with a couple of old guys who figured that this was the last waltz. They were frustrated by a city that could spend a million on bent hockey sticks, but could take away the last golf course they would ever walk.
4/30/2012 11:23:54 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
ALWAYS a back-door bandit, pulling strings in Cronyville.
5/1/2012 6:52:40 AM
wayne says:
crappy gardener, you are obviously not a golfer. so what if seniors go south during the winter to golf when our courses are buried beneath snow. they worked hard and long, and paid more taxes than you ever have/will.
4/30/2012 11:27:46 PM
portland39 says:
Did anyone consider the opportunity cost of closing te golf course, I garuntee the ground will be converted in the years into a residential subdivision (given the popularity of the area, and the pro development attitude of the Oli-poo counsel) with approx 50 lots for houses that could have been built in the city and last time I checked proprty taxes in the are greater than 2K/ year... there is the 100K savings of closing the golf course gone to another municipality. Great Thinking.....
4/30/2012 11:31:46 PM
The Wolf says:
You do realize that this golf course lies outside the city limits and after the sale price of the property the city will make exactly zero $$$ off of it?
5/1/2012 9:39:29 AM
localdog says:
I'm not a golfer so I don't really care either way, but now that they've decided to close this course maybe Rebecca Johnson can be persuaded to fence it in and give the city a real dog park. Far more dog owners than golfers in this city anyways.
5/1/2012 1:00:28 AM
Tbaylifer says:
We could save more money if we got rid of 6 councilors and allot of needless positions such as the urban forester and recreation coordinator too start. Over paid under worked.
5/1/2012 7:01:21 AM
jjd says:
I sure will miss Muni. Great to walk, fun to play. I was looking forward to teaching my son how to golf there. I really hope it remains a golf course. Thanks to the councillors who voted to keep it. I wonder what may be on the chopping block next.
5/1/2012 8:12:04 AM
Steven says:
Finally! This city got something right!

One of the key criteria in choosing what services to provide is to ask the question:

"Does the private sector already provide the service?"

If the answer is yes, then we should not be wasting taxpayer money duplicating service. Its that simple.

I would like you for a second to imagine you were the owner of one of the other non-municipally run courses in the city..... how would you feel knowing that taxpayers were paying for not one, not two, but THREE competitors for your course? I would be outraged.

The only caveat to my point is if there is a barrier to entry (like low income) for some people. I would point to 'cheap days' and times at many courses in our area, which bring them in line with the fees our municipally run courses charge.
5/1/2012 8:21:58 AM
Me n My Opinion says:
I don't often agree with you Steven, but in this case I do. In fact, in my opinion, it should go two steps further and get rid of Strath and Chapples. It's my opinion that if the public sector offers a product or service that isn't offerring something different than the private sector can offer, then they shouldn't be in that business. The 3 city owned courses are the epitomy of that in Thunder Bay.

Without getting rid of all three, there are costs that will remain but get disbursed over only two courses instead of three. For true savings, they have to get entirely out of the golf business.
5/1/2012 10:59:01 AM
mikevirtanen1961 says:
Municipal ran for half a century before the private sector showed any interest in providing the service. Any outrage felt by the private sector operators should have been felt when they first wrote up their business plans, not now.
5/1/2012 11:16:59 AM
DougMyers says:
I certainly hope the inept manager will have his salary adjusted accordingly.

Those in the know understand the real problem here but for some reason no one will speak about it.

Too bad.
5/1/2012 8:22:24 AM
cityisgreat says:
as a taxpayer and golfer i applaud this decision....the taxpayers should not be subsidizing a business that continues to lose money year after year, especially when the there are private business's offering the same service. It is not fair to the taxpayers to simply demand more money...its like a bank robber, always coming back to the same bank. I vote get rid of the other two as well if they lose money. If people want to golf, (and i do) pay the going rate, not a subsidized rate. Golf is not an essential service, its a sport and government has no business subsidizing.
5/1/2012 8:25:11 AM
leafsfanatic says:
"...any closure or selling of city owned golf courses would likely result in the total abandonment of golf in the city within two years"

Really? People are going to quit golfing because they close the most expensive "average" courses? I'm sad to see Muni close as it was my regular course, but $29 for 9 holes there is outrageous. Maybe if they priced it on par with their competition they would have more rounds played. Other courses are making constant improvements and charge less, it was a no brainer for me to take my clubs elsewhere this year.
5/1/2012 8:44:57 AM
Delbert Grady says:
Im a golfer, and a damn good one too. (That shouldnt surprise any of you)

BUT:

We cant let our emotions guide our business decisions. I liked Municipal and especially the laid back atmosphere, but once again, its costing the government money that it should never have been spending in the first place.

The problem is, closing golf courses which were already paid for is once again putting band-aids on cancer. Its not the solution.

This city has managed to pay for these places in the past with a much lower tax rate than today. So what's different now?

Is our city manager misdirecting funds to cover up other failures and in turn selling us down the river? We're losing the Conservatory, Municipal, The main attraction at Chippewa, and lord knows what else.

And what are we getting? More taxes, more wasteful spending, shrinking park lands, and a bigger yearly expense to keep these grandiose dreams functioning.

This is a travesty of city management.

Blame Commieisso.
5/1/2012 8:59:14 AM
Me n My Opinion says:
I usually try to avoid replying to your posts because it becomes like being in an argument with a spoiled four year old, but sometimes I can't help myself.

You say, "closing golf courses which were already paid for is once again putting band-aids on cancer.", yet you so strongly support putting people with social problems in jail for long periods. If that's not the biggest band aid solution in the world, I don't know what is.

I look forward to your overly aggresive and insulting reply.
5/1/2012 11:06:19 AM
lonewolf9 says:
All I can say is remember WHO voted to close this course down come election time.
5/1/2012 9:09:04 AM
TBDR says:
oh I will... I need to remember who to re-elect.
5/1/2012 4:34:14 PM
CyberDude says:
Drop the price and more people will come in return you'll get more money.
I for one love to golf, but it's so expensive that i go once or twice a year. If the price wast to be cut by 1/3 i'd go more than 5 or 6 time at least. I'm sure same goes for other people.
5/1/2012 9:21:20 AM
metisman says:
Undoubtedly the cost of golf does discourage the average golfer (me)or a beginner from golfing. With the current costs of all three course increasing every year, it makes keeping them less attractive. However, we have to look at what attributes to the high cost of running these courses by review each cost line item. Is it completely due to labour cost or are there management fees taken by the city for "overseeing" the golf courses? These are questions that should have been asked and answered to the public before Ms Johnson and others on council voted to close this course. I think that fiscal responsibility is key for our city to survive and grow but in this case I think this was a quick decision made for the wrong reasons. Time will tell
5/1/2012 9:43:03 AM
upchuck says:
Lets privatize city council!

P,S,,Delbert,your a idiot!
5/1/2012 9:48:32 AM
yqt says:
1) I Agree.
2) I Agree 10000000%
5/1/2012 4:52:47 PM
Delbert Grady says:
Isnt that what the "agree" function is for?

Or are you two peas in a pod?
5/1/2012 5:52:14 PM
tiredofit says:
^^ What he said ^\^
0
5/1/2012 8:11:50 PM
Sandwiches1123 says:
On a more personal matter, I was disgusted with two councilors who suggested things like buying a McDonald's franchise or getting into the hairstyling business. That's the wrong mentality to bring to council meetings. But if they really want to play that game consider this:

How many years did the public courses run a profitable business and put those funds back into things like the Complex, arenas, parks, or TbayTel?

Funny how those numbers seem to have disappeared from the collective consciousness.

A golf course should not be compared to McDonald's or hairstyling. You don't see private businesses getting into the arena business or the playground park business do you? Maybe if the City weren't keeping prices so low (free for public parks, lets start charging a fee! *that was sarcasm folks*) then private developers could come in and provide better service. Golf is recreation, those private businesses got into golf after the public courses started showing profits.
5/1/2012 9:53:36 AM
rilster says:
So Rebecca Johnson wants to close the other 2 city courses ? She does realize that all of the small privately owned courses are only 9 holes. They do not provide the same quality of service that for eg Strathcona does. It is like comparing 5 pin bowling to 10 pin bowling. These 9 hole private courses provide a service for a certain type of golfer. However if you take your golf seriously or want to be challenged then an 18 hole facility like Strathcona is needed. It amazes me that no one has brought up to this very important fact. The knowledge that some of these councillors bring to issues they vote on is really scary. Rebecca Johnson IMO is not knowledgeable enough about golf and golf courses to be even voting on this issue. So to all of you councillors who think the private sector is providing the same service as Strathcona and Chapples you are WRONG. Get your facts straight and get some kind of clue what you are talking about !
5/1/2012 9:55:52 AM
metisman says:
Undoubtedly the cost of golf does discourage the average golfer (me)or a beginner from golfing. With the current costs of all three course increasing every year, it makes keeping them less attractive. However, we have to look at what attributes to the high cost of running these courses by review each cost line item. Is it completely due to labour cost or are there management fees taken by the city for "overseeing" the golf courses? These are questions that should have been asked and answered to the public before Ms Johnson and others on council voted to close this course. I think that fiscal responsibility is key for our city to survive and grow but in this case I think this was a quick decision made for the wrong reasons. Time will tell
5/1/2012 11:17:05 AM
Knowledge Worker says:
Good, now sell Strathcona. Union workers have no business on the golf course, unless they are playing. Chapples should be the only City golf money pit. By selling courses we are essentially subsidizing tax payers (You would think) to have money to play whatever sport they want and not be pigeon holed into golf. Also, why is our City competing with private industry who creates jobs that increase our tax base? Good on those councillors who voted in favour. Now we just need to come to our senses that we don't actually need a Multiplex.
5/1/2012 11:37:07 AM
yer joking says:
So What will the city subsidize? Just Rebecca's favies or maybe Trevor's.I always thought the city was for the citizens not the noble know all rulers. Don't worry kids you won't be forgotten some grinch will want your stuff pretty soon as well.
5/1/2012 1:52:51 PM
1234TB says:
While we are at it why not close the Games Complex. It is competing against many private gyms and pools. At the same time we should closely examine the hockey arenas, do we need all of them! What a City, closing a receational facility for $100,000 saving!! council should be ashamed of themselves. I challenge them to find real savings itn he daily operations!
5/1/2012 2:40:27 PM
anvil of crom says:
Your logic is a bit confusing. I can see your point about closing anything that loses money, and or competes with public business. BUT, as to the complex, most of the costs of operation are in the pool, and just what private pools does it compete against??
LU? its not private, volunteer pool, uhh city run....so what are U referring to?
As to private gyms yes, its a much smaller portion of the operating costs. But then again not just anyone can afford to go to fitness plus or get a membership at push fitness.
and to follow you private versus public argument just where are the private indoors rinks in town, that have public skating for example?
5/3/2012 12:43:24 AM
dynamiter says:
Posting By: Livio Di Matteo on Northern Economist -
The more interesting issue is how should the city proceed with selling Municipal. Simply selling off the land and using the revenues generated to fund current operating spending for the coming year smacks of opportunism and desperation. Simply selling off the course and spending the money to meet current operating expenditures would mean open season on all city assets and would indicate that Thunder Bay's civic leadership is unwilling and unable to deal with its finances in a responsible way..... It would be forward looking if a few acres of it could be set aside as public space for future generations.

Kind of agree with all except the last statement - why would Thunder Bay care about setting aside Green Space for OliverPaipoonge residents - and this whole zoning aspect is up to OP not the City.
What if somebody buys it and sets it up as a golf course/ with residences?? Sounds good to me - what about Bruno's Contracting?
5/1/2012 6:31:29 PM
Big Head says:
Yaaaaa! Rebecca Baby! Shut'm all down! You know what else I'm up for. Since we are cleaning house lets save ourselves and additional $150 000/year by getting rid of the "At Large Councillors" What do we need them for? We have enough representation on council with the wards. Lets just see how that adds up. Get rid of all golf courses will save $900K + $150K for the councilors that's over $1 000 000.00/year. Ohhhhhh ya!!! I like it. Oh, maybe we should charge people to go to the Marina too! And only make it accessible by bike. Now that's Progress!
5/1/2012 6:42:15 PM
blue says:
The end of an era. It is very sad to see this course sold off to probably one of our local self centered developers. This course has provided excercise for many seniors who will probably not go to other city courses. $100.000 seems a drop in the bucket as compared with other city blunders.I think it is time to retire the director of golf who has not done anything of value since his inception.Rebecca Johnson needs to keep to her pet ventures and stay out of the golf game because the city should not be financing a lot of things including councellors.
5/1/2012 6:54:20 PM
can't wait 4 elections says:
We had 1 of the lowest costing golf memberships for 3 courses in the Prov. if not the country. Instead of promoting this to new students,doctors, other's looking to locate here and taking advantage of the great opportunity that residents here had,the city in it's wisdom hired a new golf manager to improve this situation. Every year another fiscally irresponsable move to compete with private courses,which of course was never the mandate of municipal courses,it was to provide less than country club courses at less than country club prices. Look what we have,a manager that has been awarded raises every year of running the courses into the ground by trying to make them something they were never intended to be and even an assistant to help him.Only here would you be rewarded for doing your job so poorly.For the counselor who thinks it's cheaper for youth to play city courses you are wrong do your homework. Lets not 4get the counsellors here today that were 1 vote away of selling TBay Tel
5/1/2012 6:59:42 PM
citywkr says:
"McIntyre Ward Coun. Trevor Giertuga said they would save $4 million over 20 years and $8 million over 40 years with the course closed."

WOW now I know why we elected Giertuga, he's a mathematical genius!
5/1/2012 8:40:26 PM
mindcrime says:
Golf is on the decline and Municipal isn't the only option for seniors. Let the municipality where the course is earn the property tax revenue from there. Though I am a member of a semi-private course, there is no way they should close Strathcona or Chapples. They are the only public 18 hole golf courses in the city and there is a BIG difference between a 9 and 18 hole course.

Maybe Rebecca can focus her efforts at closing down one of her passionate places but she is just self-serving anyways. Sell one of the numerous parks in the city where unionized staff cuts grass, picks up garbage and naps in their truck.

As for Delbert, if you are that damn good of a golfer, people will tell you - you don't have to tell everyone.
5/1/2012 9:26:59 PM
canadaboy2000 says:
I do golf, but this is 100% the right decision.

The city and surrounding area has what.. 10 or 15 courses, with a population of maybe 150,000. Or one course for every 10,000 people? Thats alot, people. Its really no wonder some of the courses are loosing money.

Closing the city run course will not only save us taxpayers the cost to run it, but it will drive the municipal golfers to play at other private course which will help them out.
Saves taxpayers money, and helps private industry.. sounds like a good thing to me.

Perhaps they will even sell the course to private investors, and it will stay open? Either way.
5/1/2012 10:25:05 PM
kirkage says:
Privatise all the golf courses in Thunder Bay. This time when someone goes there they won't get a face full of bad attituide and perhaps the prices will come down a bit. 37 bucks for 9 holes is insane when Chapples isn't better than any private ones in town.

No more workers miserable they make 20+ dollars an hour instead have people happy to make 10.25
5/2/2012 9:34:47 AM
mypointofview says:
Great job! close the only course that makes money. I assume that the paper work is already done up to sell the land at a fraction of the value but with a little incentive for our council.
5/2/2012 5:18:09 PM
CityHawke says:
I think Foulds is loosing it (not to mention a few others on council). His quality of life concern is wonderful if persons can afford to pay their taxes and have the extra monies to golf, ski, attend concerts and hockey at the proposed Multi-event Center etc.

This property wasn't even owned by the city. Do the real math. This one makes sense.
5/4/2012 1:10:02 AM
citygolfer says:
Did this council actually pay someone to study why city courses lose money ?? WOW! could it be that labour costs are too high to be competitive, anyone can figure that out. It's there own employees they throw under the bus. Of course council will dance around that fact and pretend it's something else. Private developers have created too many small 9 hole courses which we already had in Municipal now they complain that they sholdn't have to compete with city courses what nerve! Council should learn something about the game like a regulation golf course is 18 holes of which there are only 4, 2 private, 1 most people can't afford and 2 city owned not really much choice for serious golfers .They spent what was it 3 quarters of a million dollars on irrigation at strathcona ? now you want to sell? If strath and chapples go that will kill competitive golf in thunder bay just consider where almost every district event is played.Certainly not at pitch and putts.
5/4/2012 10:27:00 AM
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