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2012-06-14 at NOON

City to have independent investigation into flood

By Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com
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The city will have an independent investigation into what happened at its sewage treatment plant.

Mayor Keith Hobbs said while the investigation will look into what happened when the plant flooded last month, it needs to be independent in the interest of transparency.

“We don’t want any conspiracy theorists out there. If we’re to blame we’re going to tell you that we’re to blame. I don’t anticipate that. I really don’t,” Hobbs said.

The Atlantic Avenue sewage treatment plant’s main pumping station is functioning again but there are a number of damaged and non-operational parts in the plant that will take months to get back to normal.

The investigation will also look into a breach that flooded the 1964 part of the plant. It’s still not known where that breach is or what caused it.

While work at the plant ramps up, the city and volunteer agencies are winding down their relief efforts.

The Red Cross registration centre at St. Peter’s Catholic Church will close at noon on Friday while its Confederation College centre will shut down Saturday at 6 p.m. Red Cross spokesman Davis St. Georges said out of 359 cases the agency has worked on, which helps people with everything from cleaning supplies to food, they’ve now closed 316.

“We’re at a point now where the cases closed are exceeding the numbers of cases opened daily so that’s a really good spot to be in,” he said adding that it has been the largest Red Cross response in Ontario in a decade.

Out of 520 homes signed on for the city’s safe home clean-up program, there are only 73 remaining that need help.

Fire chief John Hay said it’s still premature to have a number for homes that may never be livable again due to damage.

“We’re just getting a look at a lot of homes that have never been looked at for a very long time,” he said.

Garbage collection in the city will return to a three-bag limit starting next week, although people still needing large items picked up can still call 98-FLOOD for help. Public meetings will take place June 23 at the Slovak Legion and Moose Hall.

“I’m hoping they’re a little more low-key than last time. I know the city has really stepped up to the plate. We don’t have all the answers obviously so I don’t think it’s time for finger pointing, that time may never occur,” Hobbs said.


 

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Comments

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Arch Stanton says:
Yawn...

There was very heavy rain.

The water levels built up.

The water got into the sewage plant.

The plant got knocked out.

Where do I claim my $50k consulting fee???
6/14/2012 1:47:11 PM
Doug Meyers says:
No. The amount of inflow should have had no effect on the plant. The pumps are able to keep pumping regardless of the inflow. What happened was there was a breach somewhere else in the system that caused the pumps to be flooded. Once they were stopped the system was doomed. What caused the breach must be found, remedied and steps taken to ensure this cannot happen again. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the design of the pumping station. Windsor has an identical pumping station, designed by RV Anderson. The problem was not helped by the high flow, but not caused by it. Steps should also be taken to minimize the infiltration of the sanitary sewer system and to ensure the integrity of the main sewers. Otherwise this could happen again.
6/14/2012 5:40:06 PM
Winger says:
Sorry Hobbes.

Now is the time for finger pointing and telling the truth. If we wait for the city to provide us with answers, we will be waiting forever.

The citizens are getting very tired of yours and Commissios lies. The time for accountability is now, not later. The longer you drag this out the more it becomes another non issue.

and you know that all too well. So youre not fooling anybody except yourself.
6/14/2012 2:39:58 PM
john says:
No, why wait for answers when you can make baseless accusation now.
6/14/2012 2:55:02 PM
Tim H. says:
If the city cant even manage to properly come forward with a hotelier at our waterfront misadventure, do you think we can trust them to openly tell us what happened at the Atlantic Ave. plant that caused millions (possibly hundreds of millions) dollars in damages?

City hall has proven they cant be trusted in the past, so what kinda of fool would trust them this time?

The city failed to live up to their end of our sewage agreements, one of which they charge unrealistic rates for as well. Thats all we need to know to cast blame.

Its the citys fault. They failed to perform their contractual duties. They are responsible.

Everybody knows it. The insurance companys know it, the citizens know it too. Only the professional deniers like Hobbs pretend not to.
6/14/2012 3:47:25 PM
panzerIV says:
The city is doing this to get a unbiased opinion on what failed so that people don't jump to conclusions that they city is trying to hide something.

Sounds like that's a little late cause people been jumping on the city since day 1.

Would it actually stop people from accusing the city? Nope, look at the multiplex for example. There was a hint they would choose the downtown and people were jumping all over the consultants saying the city paid them off.

I hope they figure out what went wrong (which will likely just be the amount of water inflow) and put recommendations in to try and avoid something like this from happening on this scale again.
6/14/2012 3:39:19 PM
The Wolf says:
People in this city have been jumping to conclusions since 1970.

Number 1 reason people jump to conclusions is they are often ignorant on the subject in which they think they know something about.

A little information is a dangerous thing to have.
6/15/2012 1:13:27 PM
dad3192 says:
hope it costs less than the bent poles...........or at the very least is more effective
6/14/2012 3:54:59 PM
Doug Meyers says:
The sanitary sewers in Thunder Bay have always been inundated with "clean water" resulting in higher than normal "sewage" flows during rain storms. During such events the water table is raised, resulting in higher infiltration from ground water. Significant contributions also come from sump pumps which (usually illegally) discharge to the sanitary sewer and downspout connections (again, usually illegal). I say "usually illegal" because in some cases they have been allowed under "grandfathering" until such time as a property is renovated or a storm sewer is installed on the street (e.g. Prince Arthur Hotel). However, in this case I firmly believe the cause of the over ten-fold increase in flow was due to rivers backing up through old sewer overflows that the city has neglected to upgrade or seal. These overflows allowed combined sewers to overflow to the river during surcharge events. However if the river level exceeds the sewer outlet, the reverse happens. It has happened before.
6/14/2012 4:28:59 PM
cachinnate says:
Best explanation I've heard of yet. Wait and see if it proves true
6/14/2012 10:04:17 PM
olddog says:
The way I see it, its very simple rain water belongs in the storm sewer system and sewage belongs in the septic sewer system. So why should a rain storm put water into the septic sewer system? It sounds like the City has their lines crossed somewhere and that would make the flooding of homes in the city their fault. Rain water should not have caused an over capacity of the sewage treatment plant.
6/14/2012 5:13:09 PM
anvil of crom says:
rain water does NOT belong in the sewer = correct.
As i found as an former owner of a house built in the 50's my pump failed one year and when replacing it i found out my sumps went into the sewer( after tracing the line.
I didnt change it ...I mean why, i had no clue of the implications.
So there must be thousands of old houses that did that during the rains.
Storm sewers were well under water, add a few feet of head pressure and they are overloaded, thats why water was shooting out of manhole covers.
6/16/2012 8:32:55 AM
jonthunder says:
Respectfully, to help ensure at least a perception of transparency,will the city publish the terms of reference, budget, and list of tenders for this investigative work?
6/14/2012 6:08:40 PM
whodo says:
I'm hoping the Insurance Companies will have their own independent investigation.
The problem needs to be identified and solved, so there is no repeat.
I would like someone to come forward and tell us what happened in the 2008 flood, a lot of us are JUST NOW hearing about?
6/14/2012 7:22:12 PM
Big Head says:
Come on Hobbs! If the city is at fault OWN UP TO IT! If it is not at fault, you better have a good reason why! If a motor failed then it failed and there was nothing you could of done about it. BUT if you could of have something notify somebody the water level was too high then the city is still at fault and I blame the person running the place.
Now lets got with the consultant. If you're getting paid say $50G's from the city. Who you going to blame. Uhhhhhhhh, not the city! Because you won't get hired again. Now if they get paid $1000.00 you might get a different story. So as for your reason Hobby! It stupid! Get you own people to do it! Well, unless you want to hire me.
6/14/2012 8:01:24 PM
theendgame says:
I’m hoping they’re a little more low-key than last time. I know the city has really stepped up to the plate. We don’t have all the answers obviously so I don’t think it’s time for finger pointing, that time may never occur,” Hobbs said.

I'm hoping the eastenders show up to the meeting once again 'loaded for bear'.Not one ward meeting by that coward of an alderman paul pugh during this disaster. Shame on you paul!
6/14/2012 9:02:34 PM
hopper says:
Absolutely agree!!!
Pugh did not have a meeting (shameful!!!) and the city waited three weeks to give the taxpayers and voters the second meeting they were promised would happen sooner. And we're supposed to trust these people?

Rain water should never have affected the ability of a sewage treatment plant, period. One thing has nothing to do with another.
6/15/2012 11:01:31 AM
Tom Sanderson says:
Doug Meyers comment is inline with what took place. If the city doesn't investigate this everyone will complain that they didn't. They are going to do something, and people are still going to complain because that is all people FROM Thunder Bay do.
Water doesn't soak into asphalt or the ground when it is already saturated and takes the route of least resistance which in the case here is the sewage system. The flood happened, lets hope they can find the real reason why the sewage system got overwhelmed and flooded and find a solution to prevent it from happening again.
6/14/2012 9:29:50 PM
anon says:
a lot of engineers perusing the comments, i see.
6/15/2012 1:54:29 AM
itshell says:
Right on Tom Sanderson...
6/15/2012 7:40:32 AM
unionbay880 says:
Waaahhhh! What a bunch of whiners, first everybody was saying the city was not giving them answers and covering up the cause of the flood. Now they have an independent investigation and still the whining persists. This is worse than the 2 bent poles at the marina.
6/15/2012 9:25:25 AM
Pandora says:
Doug Meyers is sounding very much 'in the know'.

The city has admitted to underfunding infrastructure by millions. They have known for years they needed some $300 Million in water and sewer upgrades.

Let Us Not Forget

They knew all of this when they (Lynn Peterson Mayor) made the waterfront redevelopment project their(L. Peterson) number one priority at the 08 budget.

At the same time diverting dollars 'ear marked' for 'Senior Homes' to the waterfront redevelopment project.

Is it right that TBay Tel dividends go towards projects like the waterfront or future mega Arena projects?

Or is it more important that our water and sewer upgrades get done.
They have 2 sometimes 3 security people at the waterfront BUT no one manning the Sewage Plant during a week of rain, knowing we had more rain on the way.

So you see, it really doesn't take much to keep bringing up the waterfront ...remember this is also the month Mr Bova has promised he will be announcing the Hotelier, yes/no???
6/15/2012 9:26:52 AM
Pandora says:
I'm hoping the whole town shows up for the Saturday meetings because we are all going to pay for this one!
6/15/2012 9:37:53 AM
Doug Meyers says:
There are comments that the Sewage Treatment plant should be staffed 24-7. This makes no sense at all. The plant was designed to be operated automatically when not staffed and those duties that need to be done with personnel can be done in on an 8-7 basis. Perhaps it should be staffed on an overtime basis in the case of a major storm warning; whether it was in this case will come out in the investigation. However, in view of what apparently happened, having someone there would not have prevented a structural breach, or mitigated the damages. Round the clock staffing would require 2 people on duty for every shift, would add a huge operating cost with minimal benefit, would require a higher sewer surcharge and inflate your water bill even more. It is simply not needed.
6/15/2012 9:58:00 AM
stuck? says:
Where's DelbertGrady when you need a consultant???
6/15/2012 10:48:06 AM
Mightyconcerned says:
I agree with Doug Meyers that having staff physically at the sewage plant is NOT necessary. Seveal sensors (including several backups in the event of a sensor failure) can be installed at various possible water levels that telephone persons on call. If the person does not answer the call can go to a answering service, police, even Mayor Hobbs.

Regarding the comment about the existing abandoned sewers breaking their seal and backflowing into the sewage plant..... we are a city that can't even sweep our streets on a timely basis, let alone patch the big holes in them (sections of our streets look like we are a developing country).....what makes us think that the city has the wherewithal to maintain a potential breach?
6/15/2012 12:32:37 PM
fooser-q says:
Doug Meyers seems to be a voice of reason here, good commentary! In any case, when Engineers design a system for anything, they try to take all factors into account, and probably a lot of factors most people wouldn't even consider. The reality is, even if you do take everything that could possibly be imagined, Nature tends to show up and do whatever it wants to anyways...smashing our assumed contingencies to pieces.

There was record breaking rainfall in the Month of May, half of which fell in a period of approximately 3 hours. Who would have saw that coming? At least the city is having an independent study done, so it can't be said that some factors were ignored or covered up.

So to everyone armchair heckling out there, be the change you want to see in this city! Step up and run for office if you think you can do a better job. Make a difference for the better instead of whining about how everyone else in administration is falling short of your expectations. Rant over.
6/15/2012 12:41:00 PM
SBN says:
What does the waterfront beacons have to do with an independent inquiry on the flood? NOTHING... Each day someone brings up the waste of money of the Beacons in their argument. The Ignorance of people on this form is very tiring, and the Beacons very much outside of their league of understanding. I feel sorry for the Mayor & Council having to deal with people that couldn't even organize a drink-up at a brewery. Independent Inquiry, top marks to the city on making this move. Check mate.
6/15/2012 7:57:58 PM
wayne says:
I suspect a failure of the 'O' rings in the solid waste rocket boosters.
6/15/2012 8:22:59 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Endless money to squander on junk, so what's a little disaster?
6/16/2012 2:55:55 PM
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