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2012-06-29 at 16:01

Bombardier officials says light rail in city could work

By Jodi Lundmark, tbnewswatch.com
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Light rail transit could work in Thunder Bay, said a Bombardier official.

“A simple light rail would be great because it’s fast, it’s ecological. It’s very convenient for people,” said Rene Lalande, vice-president for Bombardier’s Thunder Bay business unit.

While the city’s population density is on the low side right now, Lalande said Bombardier would be happy to work with the community to develop a plan to perhaps install a light rail system one day.

It’s a process that would take five to 10 years of planning.

“You need to look at the ridership first. You need to look at the right of way to make sure you have someplace to put the rails and then you have to look at the vehicle,” Lalande said.

Coun. Aldo Ruberto raised the idea of light rail transit in the city at Monday’s council meeting, suggesting the company might be interested in building a test track to showcase their products, allowing local transit users to benefit. Bombardier officials were at the meeting to detail their celebration plans for their 20th year in Thunder Bay and the 100th anniversary of the former Can-Car plant.

Mayor Keith Hobbs said the idea is one that needs to be explored.

“Light rail cars produced in Thunder Bay perhaps should be utilized in Thunder Bay,” he told Thunder Bay Television.

“Perhaps at the very least, we could have a run along the waterfront as a tourist attraction.”

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Comments

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Steven says:
MONORAIL!? This is almost identical to the episode of the simpsons where they try and put a monorail in springfield and other small american cities.... they all go bankrupt, and nobody is surprised.

Apparently, this Bombardier guy:
a) doesn't watch the simpsons
b) doesn't realize the basic economics of light rail

Wait a sec.... isn't this THE guy that SHOULD realize the economics of light rail, since HE SELLS THESE THINGS? There is a reason cities with pops well over 500000 tend to start to look at this type of thing, as opposed to cities with 115000 and an over-burdened tax base.

This man and each and every member of council who doesn't instantly dismiss this idea as the stupidest thing they have ever heard, is an idiot, or is being bribed to bring the idea forward.

INSANE.
Am I way off base here, or is there actually some argument for light rail here? I think these people are nuts, but I just want to confirm nobody else has an argument for light rail.
6/29/2012 4:21:22 PM
BetterThunderBay says:
A. I love that episode of the Simpsons.
B. Yes, you are missing the point.

In the article that Mr. Lalande says that population density is low in Thunder Bay at this point, indicating that some change will need to occur before a streetcar is considered. Often streetcars encourage higher density along corridors, which is ideal for the May/Memorial/Algoma route or similar thoroughfares. These things take years to plan, but city planners need to be looking ahead, because by the time we need good transit or changes to land use, it can already be too late.

Yes, rail is capital intensive, but operation cost is lower, riders prefer it to buses, and the equipment lasts many times longer. Also, it'd be electric, so it's efficient and fuel cost is less of a worry. Financially it comes out in the wash.

Be serious. It's not a Bombardier money grab. They have orders for hundreds of cars at a time, a few in Thunder bay won't make or break the plant.

So "bribery" or "stupid" as you say, no.
6/29/2012 10:24:56 PM
Circular_Logic says:
When I heard this fellow speak on the local news last evening, it was clear to me that while he wanted to guffaw out loud, he instead was courteous and let Mr. Ruberto and his pipe dream down easily.
6/30/2012 12:58:52 AM
TBinTO says:
This article brought something to mind: could a National Transportation Museum be established in Thunder Bay? So much history at the Bombardier / Can-Car / Hawker Siddley plant, intertwined with that of the city and the rest of the country... Something the city should be proud of...

Steven, as for light rail -- that can include streetcars. The city used to have operating streetcars many many years ago. Does anyone know why they were discontinued?
6/29/2012 4:49:39 PM
Steven says:
We can't afford streetcars either.

Neither one is a good idea in a city this size.

The only reason the worked in the good ol' days was because they were made by people earning very little, the rails were laid by people earning very little, and they were driven by people earning very little.

Today? Bombardier labour: $$$$$$$$$$$ Construction of rail/streetcar lines: $$$$$$$$$ unionized streetcar drivers: $$$$$$$$$

Once again, lets look at this when we hit a half million people.

MONORAIL. Nuff said.
6/29/2012 5:28:47 PM
passlake says:
If I can add to your points...

They were built, according to the Thunder Bay museum, to link the business district of Port Arthur to the rail yards and grain elevators in Fort William.

Don't forget, in 1892, vehicles weren't exactly commonplace either. People needed a fast way to get around.. now we just lazily drive everywhere.

I like the idea of clean efficient public transportation, but I think it's a little premature to be talking light rail.
6/29/2012 8:02:08 PM
unknowncronic says:



MONORAIL

6/29/2012 5:18:39 PM
unknowncronic says:
string it thru from the border to north, east & west junctions connecting Thunder Bay once again to the rest of the world...

if not, why even play with rail cars?
6/29/2012 5:37:56 PM
Joey Joe Joe Jr. Shabadoo says:
By golly, hes gonna put Thunder Bay on the map!
6/29/2012 5:40:16 PM
whatthe says:
This typical Thunder Bay. Why would we think not only in terms of being progressive, but " out of the box ". Hey just build more hockey rinks, thats a good investment !
6/29/2012 6:04:38 PM
Vanity says:
What is Hobbs and Roberto smoking? I want some. Most rediculous idea ever.
6/29/2012 6:12:09 PM
panzerIV says:
This is all coming about because Councillor Roberto asked about it. He asked is they could put a show model train in the city to show off and allow residents to ride. Depending on the financials it could work for both the city and Bombardier.

I think a rail system from Prince Arthur's Landing - Intercity - downtown FW could be a cool little tourist thing and maybe reduce the need for buses in this area.

This gentlemen does bring up a good point that Thunder Bay doesn't nearly have the density it needs to properly function as a city. if we stop building out and started to build up. We could focus on replacing old infrastructure and make our transit system much more effective.
6/29/2012 6:31:17 PM
jimmyboy says:
Oh please spare us....Thunder Bay transit cannot turn a profit...and now we have this hair brained idea making the news which originated from Aldo Ruberto during last weeks city council meeting.! Only in Thunder Bay would an asinine idea such as this even be considered.!
6/29/2012 8:22:36 PM
realistic says:
Yes, light passenger rail needs high population density to really pay off, but there's no reason to think that it wouldn't work in a long skinny city like TBay.
Why this didn't make it into the recent transit plans is beyond me, especially with the snail's-pace, drunken milk-run routes seen on the bus transit system today. Can anyone get from one end of town to the other in a decent time-frame?
An express light rail route from north to south and transverse bus feeders would boost ridership and, hey, maybe even get more drunks off the road.
Get a good look on Google maps at the CN rail route through town. It's viable, and there is space to spare since CN lifted one un-used track. This works in Europe and, yes, even the car-crazy USA where light rail transit works on or alongside city freight tracks.
Even a couple of operating vintage streetcars maybe? Are the Bombardier display cars still around or are they scrapped?
6/29/2012 8:29:04 PM
tsb says:
This technology could be part of a testing facility for Bombardier products, with an added benefit of some functionality for the population as a whole.

This city is far too eager to give up. No wonder our economy is doing so poorly.
6/29/2012 8:37:33 PM
sam says:
Are these people serious? There is absolutely no need whatsoever for light rail transit in our city, none.

And Hobbs wants to explore this idea as a possible tourist attraction.
6/29/2012 8:43:34 PM
Mazda323 says:
Steven: you hate unions. We GET that.

The one thing that would hold this back is TBay's dependency on our cars. We love 'em, can't live without 'em!

Not only that, the way the city is set up is not rail friendly, we're to spread out. I do like the idea of a monorail along the lakefront though, perhaps the lakefront condos, if they were situated elsewhere, would have served as an entry point, leading to downtown and beyond.
My vision...too little, too late : (
6/29/2012 9:35:12 PM
Steven says:
Mazda, try sticking to refuting my points, rather than jumping on the fact that I wrote "unionized" in front of "expensive labour".
Here, i'll give you another chance:

LIGHT RAIL IS INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE AND IS NOT LOOKED AT BY CITIES UNLESS THEY HAVE WELL OVER 500,000 POPULATION. FOR THUNDER BAY TO CONSIDER THIS, EVEN FOR A SECOND, IS BORDERLINE INSANE.

There. My point without the word 'unionized' in it. Try and refute it carefully focusing on the economics and fiscal reality of putting this in a city of 120,000 people rather than just jumping on me for including the word 'union' next to 'expensive labour'. I hate a sprawling car city as much as the next guy, but light rail is so expensive it would make the events centre and flood look like a drop in the bucket.
6/30/2012 8:12:10 AM
tsb says:
Saskatoon (240,000) is investigating light rail. Kitchener-Waterloo (450,000) is starting to build it. London (450,000) is planning it. Halifax (410,000) is planning it. Victoria (380,000) is planning it. Bangor, Maine (150,000) is planning it. Corpus Christi (410,000) is planning it.

As for small cities, Lausanne, Switzerland has only 90,000 people and they have a subway.

Thunder Bay could actually have light rail for a very low cost, relative to other cities: We have the right of way (the CN line from downtown PA to downtown FW through Intercity), there is already one track laid down with enough room for two, and there are many lots along that line where stations can be built. Bombardier could supply cars at low cost; we could get demo or surplus vehicles to operate on the line.

Light rail here wouldn't be as expensive as many people think. It would cost a lot of money, and it certainly isn't needed now, but it should definitely be considered for the future.
6/30/2012 12:01:51 PM
GregPeck says:
Monorail!?

What?

Are these people insane?
6/29/2012 10:59:26 PM
canadaboy2000 says:
I work at Bombardier and think it would be a horrible idea.
It has nothing to do with the product, I know they produce the best product on the market.
But as far as the logistics of a light rail system in the city, it would be far to expensive to implement in any useful way. If you gained speed in the rail cars, you would loose speed on the streets, as the rail cars would block every street when they went by... If you raised the track off the ground to run above streets, we would go bankrupt trying to implement that. We cant even afford more than one overpass on the entire "expressway" we have. Then there's the cost of new train stations, and a million other reasons that it would be a bad idea.
Just look at the city population over the last 50 years, and notice it hasnt grown... at all. How long would it actually take this city to grow to a size to support this? Not my life time.
I'd rather we invest in expanding our so called expressways, and four laning our highways.
6/30/2012 2:06:32 AM
Queensland55 says:


I checked the wikipedia.... seems like light rail is used by cities like Edmonton, Dallas, Sydney, Chicago, Jerusalem etc.
Strange.... I didn't see any small cities on that page. I guess these people missed the fact that light rail costs many hundreds of million dollars.
I second the sentiment of other posters: MONORAIL
6/30/2012 8:15:36 AM
mika says:
It appears the same people complaining are those same people that are always complaining about high taxes in this city and high gas prices. THIS CITY IS TOO SPREAD OUT and we need to start making it more dense AND PLANNING FOR IT NOW.

What is wrong with looking at a light transit line as part of a plan to make this city more dense. Perhaps, Bombardier can use it as a line to test new product or showcase new vehicles to potential customers from around the world(like other companies do)

If we keep building out, with huge asphalt oceans surrounding our buildings, our communities infrastructure will continue to decay, because we can not afford to fix the roads we have now. Our taxes will continue to rise, to maintain all this new infrastructure and repair and replace existing.

If we started planning on being a more compact and high density city, a lot of the problems people always complain about HERE would decline or vanish. LOWER TAXES, LESS GAS, LESS CRIME, and on and on..
6/30/2012 9:05:06 AM
sam says:
Never mind the fantasy dream of light rail transit for our city, how about something practical and achievable like getting via rail to stop here again.
6/30/2012 9:05:23 AM
pippirose says:
Yes! Exactly!! If we can't even be connected to the "real world" by rail, how can we expect a light rail system to work within our city? Every city that has a light rail system also is connected to other cities, by a train system.
We need to get real.
6/30/2012 12:11:48 PM
unknowncronic says:
Bombardier officials says light rail in city could work, just not in Thunder Bay that is...
6/30/2012 11:45:50 AM
or$en says:
the local plant has a role in the lrv for toronto.
lrv's are used all over the world.

only in cities large enough to afford them.

since many already have them and have for years ... how will this be a tourist attraction?
6/30/2012 12:03:41 PM
Thunderguard says:
we need light rail in Thunder Bay like we need a water taxi from the Kam river to Current river
Tbnewswatch.com

6/30/2012 12:05:35 PM
Dudebro says:
This city can't even find a suitable place for a transit terminal. How are they going to find somewhere to locate LRT terminals. Work with CN Rail?? That'd be the day. Everyone is so scared of liability no one will share space for this especially near a rail line.
6/30/2012 6:07:27 PM
Mazda323 says:
Seems I hit a nerve there Steven. Every single post you make in this forum is bashing unions, why would this one be any different? THAT is a fact.
6/30/2012 11:25:34 PM
canrebel53 says:
We already had Electric Buses that were only costing us the maintenance to keep the running. The hydro came from Boulevard Lake but that went the way of the Dough Dough Bird. Yea this is just what we need Light Rail, just like the Water Front Project that only benefits half the City. But what was I thinking, maybe we could put in Light Rail, jack up all the taxes to do it and give that away to a Private Company out west like the Water Front, well hell that's solved let's start building tomorrow.
7/1/2012 10:24:55 AM
tsb says:
"the Dough Dough Bird"

OMG I CAN'T EVEN.
7/1/2012 5:07:55 PM
hotchoc says:
I do not understand why our city has so many problems. Political problems, come to this site, people here have the answers. Transportation, not a problem, the experts here have the answers. Flood coverage, no problem, the answers are here. Lawsuits, even easier, there are no end to lawyers on this site. Medical problems, just ask. They won't solve those but they will tell you what's wrong. Feed the poor, global warming, price of oil, you name a problem and the solution can be found right here.

I used to think the answers were just in barber shops, but this site is full of experts in every field.

No need to discuss and ask questions and to seek information. Nope, everyone here is an expert on everything.

Me, I am an expert on knowing I don't know diddly squat about this issue, unlike the other posters on this site.

Boy, I sure do wish I was as smart as everyone else.

Anonymous blogs. Aren't they just the best?
7/1/2012 4:27:00 PM
me says:
ahhh that was the highlight of my morning! Well said :)
7/4/2012 9:34:19 AM
tdub says:
Funny how people can drive a gas pig a great distance from their McMansion but rail against the horror's of street cars, condo's, apartments, bicycles, etc. Port Arthur did have a street car line. There's no reason why it couldn't work other than the auto lobby kicking up a stink. Somehow it became ok to go broke building subdivisions to nowhere but it's not ok to spend money on transit or downtown. Just have to leave the justifications to the trolls.
7/1/2012 10:53:41 PM
sam says:
@hotchoc, Please keep in mind there is absolutely nothing wrong with skepticism, crtiticism, cynicism - whatever you want to call it.

But dont call it complaining because it has an essential role to play in public discourse.

You dont have to be an expert to make astute observations.
7/2/2012 9:35:28 AM
hotchoc says:
Sam, discussion, on any topic at any level is a wonderful and welcome event. In my opinion it should happen far more often. But the reality on this site is that it is a very rare occurrence. Too many people do not make statements that question, they state absolutes without any shred of supporting evidence.

Saying this idea will not work does not belong here. Asking, "how could our population size make such a suggestion work" is a discussion point.

We couldn't circumnavigate the world. We did.
We could not get to the moon. We did.
We could not do many things that have now been made possible.

Without leaders pushing the agenda, we are doomed to mediocrity.

This man said "it may work".

No one proved him wrong, but too many said he was. That is not observation.

That is mistaken arrogance. That was all I was trying to say.

Nice chatting with you. I enjoy this, far more than reading absolutes.
7/2/2012 8:50:39 PM
Arch Stanton says:
Well, I'll stick to my 351 cu in V8, thanks.

You lot can take the train!
7/3/2012 6:54:50 PM
Chaos says:
Isn't this the same city that is getting sued for 300 million + ut must spend 100's of millions in its own repairs becaise of the sewer back up...

City needs to focus on what its suppose to do: roads, sewer, water, bridges and reducing our taxes not raising it every year for the past 2 decades. It would be cheaper to hire limo for each tourist than to build a monorail.
7/4/2012 8:39:36 AM
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