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2012-10-22 at 21:18

Cautiously optimistic

By Leith Dunick, tbnewswatch.com
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The owner of a local engineering firm is cautiously optimistic that council has not shot down his plan to turn the former Sir John A. Macdonald School into his company’s new headquarters.

Nordmin Engineering Ltd. president Chris Dougherty had asked city council to approve a zoning bylaw amendment that would allow the renovations to go forward, but city administration advised a traffic study was necessary to ensure Nordmin’s plan for a new Thunder Bay office did not negatively impact on the surrounding neighbourhood.

Council voted to refer the decision back to administration to craft a bylaw that ensures the company follows through on plans to maintain the heavily used green space on the north-end property for public use – among other conditions.

“We’re very encouraged by the decision this evening,” Dougherty said, adding he understands the need for a traffic study and that he doesn’t think it will pose too much of a delay for the project, which is all but shovel ready at this point.

“We’re going to have to do the traffic study ahead of time, which is something we’re going to have to look at very quickly. I’m not anticipating it to be a big issue. It sounds like there is a fairly extensive data set in place and so we’re going to be in contact with the firm tomorrow morning to ensure we move forward as quickly as we can.

At stake are 35 new jobs Dougherty said.

Nordmin, an international mining engineering firm 65 workers and projects on the go from Mongolia to South America to Northern Ontario, has outgrown its Alloy Drive facility.

But Mark Smith, the city’s manager of development services, said there are still a number of questions that need answering.

“The engineering division is not comfortable with the application from this standpoint,” said Smith, balking at Dougherty suggestion to allow the development to proceed ahead of the traffic study.

“There really is no way to do it in reverse order.”

Smith was also concerned the project would deplete the city’s available residential housing lot stock, while several councillors questioned if there wasn’t available commercial space available elsewhere in the city, including the municipally owned Whalen building.

Dougherty said the latter wasn’t a good fit for his staff, many of whom are women.

“One of the issues we ran into in both cores is there is a significant lack of adequate parking,” he said. “I’m not going to have them walking half a mile in the wintertime, in the dark, through some treacherous ground.”

Dougherty said it would cost about $14 million to build a new facility, and just $2.1 million to renovate the school, which his company purchased for $600,000.

Dougherty reassured council there are no plans to subdivide the property and sell it off, promising the public will still be able to use as they’ve continued to since the school was first opened in 1968.

“It will continue to be a sliding hill in the winter. It will continue to be a green space in the summer.”

The plan met with the enthusiastic support of several neighbours who backed it in deputations made to council Monday night. This marked a vast change from developer Robert Zanette’s plan to build high-density housing on the property, heavily denounced by opponents who said it would bring too much traffic to the quiet residential north-end neighbourhood. Council shot that plan down, which called for 48 indivdual and multi-use units, when it was presented to them in 2011.

Council did retreat to closed session briefly during the presentation, when a question of a possible challenge to the Ontario Municipal Board, presumably from Zanette, arose.

It’s clear the challenge won’t come from nearby residents.

Dorothy Colby, who lives next door to the former school, said she once unsuccessfully asked the provincial tax assessment office to downgrade the value of their home because she felt they lived next to a derelict building.

This plan gives her hope, she said, echoing the sentiments of several presenters who spoke in favour of the project on Monday night.

“We have felt as if we had won the lottery,” Colby said, recalling when she first heard about Nordmin’s plan.

“This building will be used as it was as a school during the day and it will be mainly vacant on evenings and weekends.”

 

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Comments

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tsb says:
Well if residents want it then let it happen. Traffic won't be a problem because no children live in that area.
10/22/2012 9:41:05 PM
Glyder says:
Really? No children in my area? Yes, I live near the school, and yes there are plenty of children that live here.

Why would you assume no children live in this area? Because the school closed down years ago?
10/23/2012 9:05:52 AM
yqtyqt says:
So let me understand the argument.

We have a company who is willing to occupy the building. They will pay taxes to help a local economy that needs help. The taxes will go towards paying for municipal services. The municipal employees will have more money on the table. And there will be an economic benefit to TBay residents.

Traffic is a non-issue in my opinion. But have the traffic study done to prove or disprove the concern.

There could be a lot worse things happen to this property. But its far too valuable to sit idle and not collect tax revenues.

If we're going to turn down every business proposal, then close the doors, lay govt employees off and turn out the lights.
10/23/2012 10:54:49 AM
tsb says:
I was being sarcastic. But hey, no one has been hit on Simpson Street in years now so I am sure this will work out just fine.
10/23/2012 5:31:53 PM
NDP says:
People are worried about the traffic footprint of 100 employees? What about when this building operated as a school? Did you not have to hear buses and the dozens of cars of parents and staff? Easily, the traffic at that school was greater than what this would bring in.

People really need to stop opposing things for the sake of opposition. I would be a hell of a lot more worried about the riff raff on the other side of the Black Path tunnel than a few dozen cars coming in weekdays 9-5 if I lived in that area.
10/22/2012 11:16:39 PM
wayne says:
traffic study...LOL! there was more traffic when the school was open!
10/22/2012 11:41:46 PM
jimmyboy says:
So after all that....Council voted to refer the decision back to administration to craft a bylaw....how very original.!

I believe there was a lot of smoke and mirrors coming from the deputation by....Chris Dougherty....according to him his company is doing work on a world wide basis....I wonder how much of that could be a bit of a stretch...

We do have industrial areas in the city where this business could locate....I believe there is no real fit into the neighborhood as he claims....and how does this meld with the city's master plan....the answer..."IT CLEARLY DOES NOT AT ALL"....yet Mark Smith has been directed to get CRAFTY.!!!

So the city turns down a housing developer in lieu of this proposal...and to boot...Dougherty has already purchased the building....I have too say I smell a RAT here.!!!

I was wondering....where oh where was the mayor....why was he not present tonight...I would have loved to hear him chime in on this topic....it would have been good for a chuckle or 2. :)
10/23/2012 12:39:33 AM
tbayfinn says:
Yes of course, a conspiracy! Nothing to do with a company wanting to move forward in this city.... The construction of new buildings and property in this city is sown up by the good ole boys club which prices it out of this world. One only has to look at building prices and lease rates in Winnipeg or Sudbury to understand this. Mining is a world wide industry with Canadian companies at the forefront of technology and knowledge, unlike forestry where we were happy to simply rape the forests and not reinvest anything.
10/23/2012 7:09:46 AM
ricky says:
jimmyboy, if you don't have the facts and don't know what you're talking about, why do you insist on posting on here. I know for a fact they do worldwide projects...and what does it matter that he bought the building already? Real estate is a great investment.
10/23/2012 7:56:18 AM
dg says:
Why would you locate an office building in an industrial area? Also if you look into it, that company does quite a bit of international work.
Why so bitchy?
10/23/2012 8:24:32 AM
SadButTrue says:
Actually your comment was good for more of a chuckle. The business is a consulting engineering firm. Not the same profession as a teacher is but when going into this building one couldn't distinguish the difference. He bought the building fair and square with the hopes council would amend zoning for him. How is there a rat? They do work worldwide, as do alot of engineering firms in our city.

I think the meld of business in residential zones is good when it is ideas like this or the paci use for the law school. This is a good use of an old building and keeps the neighbourhood in relatively the same for its residents.

Council should have just put it through.
10/23/2012 8:51:50 AM
TimsHorton says:
Interesting take on the evening's events. To say that some of your points are a "stretch" would be an understatement.
Nordmin has worked across continents. With projects in the USA, Mongolia, Bulgaria, Finland and of course accross Canada - I believe that they have the right to say "world wide". Keep in mind that engineering and design work for remote locations is regularly accomplished in offices over vast distances. The type of design work may be resource and heavy industry, but the work performed by the individuals at Nordmin is anything but.
Buying the building prior to re-zoning?
At the end of the day an asset is an asset! If Mr. Dougherty wants to purchase the building before the re-zoning - that's called risk - not a fix!
Unless you have some insider information on the situation that you are willing to share, perhaps your conspiracy theory should be dropped!
Be happy that Company of 100 individuals want to stay situated in TBay and not run away like so many others!
10/23/2012 9:18:31 AM
Tbaylifer 1 says:
NDP: the traffic study was requested by administration, it is a requirement of changing the bylaw which will then allow public use of the private green space on the property.
Jimmyboy: the cost of building is far more then fixing up the school. What would you want the mayor to do if he was there? The people spoke in favor of this project. Does anything ever go right for you?
10/23/2012 6:38:02 AM
meta says:
Whalen Building???....the Council memebers on the DSSAB emptied the building to build a brand new 15 million dollar posh building for social services in the south end of town at significant taxpayer expense and NOW you expect to force business into the Whalen Building.

Give your head a shake...this Council really needs to wake up!!
10/23/2012 7:16:07 AM
yellowsnow says:
Jimmyboy, Nordmin does operate on a worldwide scale. A quote from their website:

"Nordmin Engineering Ltd. has undertaken projects in North and South America, Africa, Europe, and Asia, and has worked for many of the world's largest companies, including Rio Tinto, Vale, BHP Billiton, Resolute, and Goldcorp. Our projects have ranged in capital value from a few million dollars to $3 Billion (U.S.), and we continue to expand our client base worldwide."
10/23/2012 7:22:27 AM
CarlW says:
The city desperately needs another Wall mart, how about building a new one..
10/23/2012 9:02:21 AM
CarlW says:
or maybe a Super Tim Hortons, how about that??
10/23/2012 9:09:02 AM
alfredoneil says:
This building can’t stay dormant forever. It’s nice to see a local business with the credibility it has wanting to enhance our community.

At the end of the day this beats loosing that beautiful green space and staring at cookie cutter condominiums. I think the surrounding community understands that making it a win, win for everyone involved.
10/23/2012 9:25:54 AM
chezhank says:
I think I saw Genivar(Cook) engineering building for sale.....properly zoned ideal for an engineering firm.
10/23/2012 9:32:48 AM
aero says:
This is the best thing that could happen to that building other than tearing it down. Since its closure the grounds have been vandalized and it currently looks like something that would be located in Detroit.

I went to SJAM from gr. 2 to 8 and cant see traffic for 50 people even comparing to what the school had when it was open...
10/23/2012 10:13:14 AM
whodo says:
Dogherty agrees there is not adequate parking in the North core, nor is it safe for people to have to park 1/2 a mile and walk.

Did you hear the CONSTRUCTION COSTS, from $3.00 to AS MUCH AS $5.00 a square foot in Thunder Bay, that is outrageous. It is a wonder anyone can build anything in this city.
Why are our construction costs so high?
10/23/2012 10:32:51 AM
Gord says:
I think you meant $300 to $500/SF
10/23/2012 12:59:09 PM
HML says:
I live very close to the former school and was elated to hear that Chris was planning to move his offices there. I only wish that he had made the move to our neighbourhood when I was in Nordmin's employment for five years. I can't help but wonder where our concerned city planner was when the monumental decision was made to locate the new courthouse in the location that it is in today...
And yes, their growing client base is world wide.
10/23/2012 11:36:15 AM
MonkeyRench says:
With all of this techno mumbo jumbo comes pollution, noise, and who know what other science horrors.

You better believe we need to keep this operation out of our neighborhood!

10/23/2012 2:25:50 PM
cachinnate says:
Say what??????
10/23/2012 3:34:27 PM
TimsHorton says:
Exactly, well said. The techno mumbo jumbo of computers, chairs and tables are an afront to any civilized living area. We like our derelict building just the way it is - boarded up and full of graffiti. By the way, you'll get more pollution (noise, exhaust gases, discharges) out of your local farm than you will out of an OFFICE! That is what we are talking about - AN OFFICE. Pollution, noise, mumbo jumbo, science horrors....pffff. Wake up. Quit wasting everyone's time with your incomprehensible mutterings.
10/23/2012 3:33:25 PM
MonkeyRench says:
Right, and you forget the main point that this is an ENGINEERING firm. So that means microscopes, chemicals, and possibly biohazardous materials in a residential zone.

Yeah, it's all good until some genetic horror gets out of control or when some dangerous machine goes "badda-boom"... badda-big-boom!

Keep this stuff away from people and into the industrial zone where it belongs. We all know there are plenty of properly zoned buildings for this kind of science-witchery.
10/23/2012 4:06:55 PM
imbroglio says:
you dont know much about what an engineering firm does,now do you.
10/23/2012 5:00:22 PM
TimsHorton says:
Really? Really? Have you ever been to an engineering office? Do you even know what one is? We are not talking about a science laboratory. There are no experiments, microscopes, chemicals, biohazardous materials or anything of the sort. YOU WATCH WAY TOO MUCH TV FOR YOUR OWN GOOD. Open your door, go for a walk, do something productive. This company performs Mechanical,Civil/Struictural, Electrical/Control/Instrumentation designs - PERIOD. Those designs are done on computers with programs such as CAD, and on paper with archaic instruments such as pens, pencils, calculators, paper. I think there may be a couple of cell phones too. There are no lab coats, or clean rooms, scrubs, or anything like that. Frankenstein is dead and will not be coming back to life anytime soon. If you truly believe the miss information that you are spewing, please go to Nordmin's office and see for yourself. The proof of their work is just a short distance away - GO SEE. Otherwise - stop it.
10/24/2012 9:03:13 AM
humnchuck says:
From their website:
Nordmin specializes in the evaluation, conceptualization, design, and commissioning of mining and heavy industrial facilities.

Our mining expertise includes all aspects of the design of underground and open pit mining systems from shafts and hoisting plants, to pit design and optimization, to mineral processing and site facilities.

Our Power Generation group works in steam and water-driven generation facilities, including coal, gas, bio-fuel and recovery boiler installations.

Our Pulp and Paper group are experts in all aspects of design, maintenance and optimization of pulp and paper facilities, with many decades of combined experience.

Doesn't sound terribly biohazardous to me...
10/23/2012 5:21:07 PM
Gord says:
I hope you're joking - or just forgot to take your meds.
10/23/2012 7:57:02 PM
tbayfinn says:
Please tell me you're not serious, this is hilarious! I guess you missed career day at school to learn what engineers actually do (and not the kind that drive trains either).
10/23/2012 11:34:43 PM
TimsHorton says:
Exactly, well said. The techno mumbo jumbo of computers, chairs and tables are an afront to any civilized living area. We like our derelict building just the way it is - boarded up and full of graffiti. By the way, you'll get more pollution (noise, exhaust gases, discharges) out of your local farm than you will out of an OFFICE! That is what we are talking about - AN OFFICE. Pollution, noise, mumbo jumbo, science horrors....pffff. Wake up. Quit wasting everyone's time with your incomprehensible mutterings.
10/23/2012 3:58:56 PM
humnchuck says:
Sounds like a great use for an empty building, Mr. Dougherty.

And as TimsHorton noted, a clean facility with 9 to 5 offices sure beats some of the alternatives that could have happened at this site such as 60-something building lots (Zannette's plan) or the current boarded up building. Mind you, there's some decent graffiti in a couple spots...

I hope the sledding hill stays accessible in the winter!
10/23/2012 4:14:06 PM
jimmyboy says:
Reply to "ricky"....and "SadButTrue"...I do not believe everything I read on any given website...however it is you who is incorrect in thinking that this business is a FIT for the area....if the city and council are to adhere to their so called MASTER PLAN...which by the way has been a very long time in the making.....then sorry to inform you 2 but the answer would have to be "NO NOT APPROVED"...also please note the posting made by..."chezhank"...which if correct....only adds even more credibility that there is indeed much more suitable property's for this business...which I am NOT against its growth...just the location in keeping with once again our master plan...plain and simple.!
10/23/2012 4:23:10 PM
MonkeyRench says:
Couldn't agree more...well said.!
10/23/2012 7:59:13 PM
Chaos says:
so they bought land not zoned for their intended use? sounds like their problem not the citys or neighborhood.
10/23/2012 6:53:13 PM
panzerIV says:
I think there is an opportunity to put more housing into the area to add a little density. We need the tax base so this addition is great but this green space is being underutilized.

The school is a gang/drunk/drugs heaven because of the bush between the fence and the green space. Usually its covered with beer bottles, needles and the summer homes of homeless people.

Adding 20 more houses into the area while also sprucing up the area. A condition of the purchase (could be added in) along with the redevelopment of Sir John A. would go a long way to improve the area. Its a nice area with the hill to play and explore.

Just needs a little boost and some investment.
10/23/2012 10:48:12 PM
TimsHorton says:
Suitable business locations? Suitable for who and to who's criteria? Yours? If you have suitable accomodations, please let the masses know. That would be great, share your knowledge of the real estate availability for commercial use in Thunder Bay. If it meets Mr. Dougherty's and Nordmin's requirements I'm sure that they would look at it as well(they most likley already have). Otherwise, quit spewing rhetoric and conspiracies. It serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to misslead and add confusion to a very simple issue.
The company wants a building - they bought a building, they will renovate it/rejuvinate it, they will keep the green space attached, the local area residents are all for it. It's a win/win scenario.
10/24/2012 8:51:04 AM
stonecutter says:
what happened to the low budget housing plan? I think that would be a better fit.
10/24/2012 3:41:28 PM
jimmyboy says:
All I can say is...to all of the anti-jimmyboy postings/comments is as follows...I AM ALL FOR THIS FIRM GROWING THEIR BUSINESS...so I just got off the phone with Genivar and YES the building they presently is in fact for sale...it is listed with Royal LePage and Jack Mallon is the agent...as per the FOR SALE posted at that location.!

So it appears that someone should bring Mr. Chris Dougherty and the mayor and city council up too speed.!
10/25/2012 9:42:31 AM
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