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2012-10-24 at 11:46

Concerned Taxpayers group request multiplex plebiscite

By tbnewswatch.com

THUNDER BAY -- More than 50 people came to Waverely Resource Library Tuesday night to express their views on where they believe the city's event centre should be placed.

A group of local residents called the Concerned Taxpayers are opposed to a multiplex in the city's downtown north core and the evening meeting was a chance for them to express those views.

One after another residents and members of the group took the microphone to express where they believe a new event centre should be placed.

The majority supported Innova Park over the downtown north core location favoured in a recent consultant's report. Some even said that a plebiscite should be held, saying that the process would help unite the community and push the project forward. But location wasn't the only issue residents put forward.

"I'm concerned about the process," said concerned local resident and Concerned Taxpayers member Bernie MacNeil. "(The process) is disregarding the public at large."

Concerned Taxpayers chairman Ray Smith added parking and safety issues for senior citizens will be issues residents must deal with if a north core multiplex is built. The meeting wrapped up at 9 p.m. Tuesday(Thunder Bay Television) 

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Comments

We've improved our comment system.
buzzerd says:
"safety issues for senior citizens " oh for christ sakes, what " safety concern" could that be. So we have a group of people, who obviously have nothing better to do, with little to no knowledge of of intercity development that want a say in how things are going to be done. I will personly pitch in $5 to help buy these people a life.
10/24/2012 11:59:21 AM
ring of fire dude says:
How does the incline to the lake for wheelchair users grab you . How about parking for these same people with mobility issues . How about safety for these people from the bums , panhandlers and predators that stalk them . I will also pitch in $5 for you to take a religious sensitivity course .
10/24/2012 12:31:41 PM
buzzerd says:
Grade issues? really? I'm thinking that's a pretty easy thing to address. Bums and and panhandlers? You mean the ones that are presently there now that you have to deal with? So what else you got for made up problems? and there is no need for the religious course, I've already heard all the fairy tales.
10/24/2012 3:53:36 PM
tbcanada says:
I'll gladly pitch in $5 as well to add to that pot! I hope you realize that those "seniors" will probably spend it at the casino, oh wait, that is in the downtown north core! This city is gettin absolutely absurd with obsticles for porgress! I don't see grandma going to any hockey games, rock concerts or outdoor shows regardless of where they take place. As far as a religious sensitivity course... I think now I've heard it all. How about offering it at the Multiplex?!?!
10/24/2012 9:17:11 PM
eastender says:
Buzzard, safety for disabled and seniors was only one of the minor issues, not the most important issue as you make it out to be. But the main issue is affordability. Looks like all the spoiled children in this town, are whining for this neew toy, (multiplex). Lets let the adults, the working stiffs, and the seniors make this decision, since they are the ones who will be paying for this white elephant. A plebiscite is the only solution.
10/25/2012 12:48:19 AM
Circular_Logic says:
The proponents of a multi-million dollar facility should be less concerned about the tri-level capital funding and more about the operating cost over time.
Failing to consider this is irresponsible and inappropriate. The argument here ought not be about where to locate but rather about how to afford it.
Let's not put the cart before the horse; firstly, we need to deal with the existing issues that face us;
1] crumbling infrastructure
2] an aging population & limited housing
3] a shrinking tax base
4] social problems of poverty and addiction
5] paying for existing capital upgrades to services [water treatment plant]
6] getting our fiscal house in order before making a huge capital and operating cost committment.
Until and unless these matters are dealt with and we cease operating the city on leveraged margins of finance susceptible to economic collapse; MAKE NO FURTHER COMMITTMENTS {period; full stop!}
10/26/2012 11:41:13 PM
Sandwiches1123 says:
I sort of agree with buzzerd only because I don't see any safety issues associated with the downtown core that don't apply to anywhere else in the city as it relates to seniors.

I would be most concerned about the cost overruns with a north core site since the City will have to move a main hydro hub located at 185 Camelot Street (use the street view of google maps).

To be honest, our City Manager is telling us that we need to be more fiscally responsible and should prepare for tax increases to pay for infrastructure improvements, yet we're willing to spend millions on a new facility?

I agree that we need a new facility but maybe this isn't the most fiscally responsible decision...
10/24/2012 12:12:08 PM
ibrando says:
@buzzerd
Start with improving your own life troll.
10/24/2012 12:15:21 PM
becker says:
He's a little insensitive in the way his comment is presented, but he is in absolutely no way wrong in what he is saying. Grade issues?? Incline to the Lake? Come on now. I hope this is not what your hoping will be the deciding factor for this debate. If so, best of luck to you.
10/24/2012 4:55:26 PM
iceman says:
Excellent, a plebiscite is a great idea, after all we are in a democracy. Let the majority rule!
10/24/2012 12:16:21 PM
yqtyqt says:
I agree that a plebiscite is in order here. This is a major expenditire on a "like to have" issue.

But if the plebiscite is to be held we need a statement from our Treasurer (not our CAO) on how this expenditure will be funded with and without the help of senior govt grants.

I also need to know the impact and cost for the average taxpayers, including proposed mill rate increases calculated from the resulting debt. The Treasurer can also comment on whether this increased debt will have any effect on our debt rating and ouir debt capacity.

What will this do to other, more important and pressing basic services.

Does the city have a tenant willing to sign a long term lease, backed by securities to guarantee the estimated revenue streams. Or will this follow the same path as Victoriaville, the Games Complex and the Auditorium and be perpetual black holes for tax revenues.

We need some answers here, before we start on another white elephant.
10/24/2012 1:19:28 PM
mercy mercy me says:
this is the only way to resolve the build it?/ locate it? issue [in my opinion]...democratically, not the Harper style of 'bullying' or catering to special interests, but by the voice of taxpayers....transparency is bantered about, let's realize it in this situation....and Mr. Smith, do not hold me hostage [a senior/taxpayer]in your fight, i did not delegate you to speak for me
10/24/2012 5:38:44 PM
iceman says:
I have a hard time understanding that the north core is our entertainment district. Innova park is beside the restaurants I like. Keg, Montanna's, Appleby, Cariboo. if I go see a concert I go to the Auditorium, which is also by Innova park. The only thing I go to in north core is the marina
10/24/2012 12:20:46 PM
fastball says:
Yes...all those restaurants - all within a 5-10 minute DRIVE. That's not the point here. The point is to transform the North Core into an "entertainment zone" - with restaurants and bars and shops all along the way, IN WALKING DISTANCE.
10/24/2012 2:01:31 PM
imhere says:
One of the news stories they had said parking won't be an issue because all the business in the area will be CLOSED during events - making a drive wherever you go anyways.

I thought this town was all one so why do we have to cram all the entertainment into one little area anyways. Why not spread it out?
10/24/2012 2:32:23 PM
jb says:
Go back and re-read the article you are trying to quote. No one has ever said that all businesses in the area will be closed during events. How many restaurants and bars do you see closed in the evening now?


"Why not spread it out?"
Thunder Bay is too spread out as is which is part of the reason it looks like a dump (abundance of vacant retail spaces, crumbling roads, etc) compared to so many other cities.
10/24/2012 4:53:35 PM
imhere says:
The story that aired on the news hour just after the downtown north core was announced said that all businesses would be closed. It wasn't in an article that was in print on here that I have noticed. Sorry you missed that one.
10/24/2012 7:12:24 PM
Common cents says:
Did you watch the news, the Fort William Clinc is moving, how dare they move, and spread this city out even more? Building new such a same!

What is this City coming to?
10/25/2012 7:03:43 PM
FinalObserver says:
Anyone living in Fort William, Westfort, or further such as myself, really don't appreciate the fact that the "entertainment zone" is a 20+ minute drive out.
10/24/2012 8:44:26 PM
conker2012 says:
I take offense to this statement! I live on the south side of town between arthur and walsh and I love that city has finally started to clusted the different zones together instead of spreading them across the entire city. HOW annoying would it be to have to drive to Currrent river for Home Depot, East end for the Mall then out to McIntyre for groceries. IT MAKES SENSE FOR LIKE BUSINESSES TO BE CO-LOCATED together. Plus it is not fun to visit the shelter house, courthouse, city hall, TBDSSAB or simpson street. So yea NORTH core ENT district all the way.

I live in Thunder Bay not Fort William. That city died 30+years ago, stop morning the past and MOVE ON. You need to realize that this is one city not two. I was born on the north and now live in the south, because that is where my wife and I both work and it was a neigbourhood that we liked that was in our budget.

We need to infill the existing and build on what we have and not push out further and further it is not sustainable.
10/25/2012 11:20:52 AM
becker says:
Don't appreciate it? Too bad. Move to the other side of town then. Same applies to the current location of the Gardens for people in Current River, or etc etc. Downtown is actually closer to the the old dividing line between Port Arthur and Fort William. Get used to it, because in time, this will happen, and it WILL happen downtown PA.
10/25/2012 3:19:54 PM
fastball says:
Um...you CHOSE to live on the edges of the city, right? Part of being out on the edges of the city is that (and I'm sure this was explained to you) is that it takes longer to get anywhere in town, right?
Seriously, if you're on the road for 20 minutes from your house, an extra 5-odd minutes shouldn't be that much of a burden.
10/25/2012 4:12:00 PM
eastender says:
Putting the multiplex in the North Core and calling this the entertainment zone is akin to putting Tiny Tim in the Met Opera house and calling him Fidelio.
10/30/2012 1:05:37 AM
TBDR says:
Aside from the fact you have to drive to those restaurants... they are all chains. That money goes to some US corporate office and likely less than 10% stays local... Compare that to Gargoyles, the Sovereign, Foundry, Thai Kitchen, Prospector, etc etc etc. All local. 100% of the money stays local.
10/25/2012 10:11:22 AM
MD says:
You can’t walk to any restaurant from Innova unless you choose to walk down the expressway to the Keg, Montana’s, Caribou. Since you’ll be driving anyway it really shouldn’t matter if you have drive from the waterfront to The Keg or from Innova to The Keg.

Restaurants/bars/pubs near Innova Park site: 5 Forks 1.7km, Montana’s 1.8km, Caribou 2km, The Keg 2km, Applebee’s 1.7km, Bistro One 2.7km

Restaurants/ bars / pubs near North Core site: Prospector 271m, Gargoyles 221m, Sovereign Room 253m, On Deck 171m, Ruby Moon 379m, Roosters Bistro 178m, Hoito 1.2km,Sushi Bowl 333m, Thai Kitchen 327 m, Tony and Adams 500m,Lot 66 563m,Black Pirates 265m.

It’s clear that the North Core offers much more than Innova Park. If parking in the North Core is a issue, then go early and get a good spot. In the meantime walk to a restaurant for supper/appetizers or a drink then head over to the event. If it’s too cold for someone to walk 200m-1km then you maybe you shouldn’t be outside.
10/25/2012 3:23:33 PM
eastender says:
Favoring the north core just to please a handfull of hair shirt walkaholics is totally unreasonable. For an expenditure the size of this one, a central location is a must. How in the world can you justify spending 106 million bucks just to please and enrich the few elite businesses in one core of the city. This is not about walking and trying to show how tough you are because you can take the cold. As a major expense, this has to be located in the central part of the city, and Innova is without a doubt as central as you can get, but dont get me started. How a consulting firm can blatantly proclaim otherwise is beyond beleivability. At the same time trying to convince joe public that this will be some fairy tale entertainment district is pure nonsense. This is political spin of the most vile type. The spin stops here. All yopu people that like to walk, get a car, learn to drive, get your license, get a friend who drives, but dont expect the rest of us to freeze in winter.
10/28/2012 12:14:59 AM
lonewolf9 says:
Hey "Sign Man"...please go away and let this city grow.
10/24/2012 12:22:31 PM
Jonthunder says:
They could not be too concerned about the safety of seniors arour a downtown event centre; they had their meeting across the street from and event centre parking lot, same place people visiting St. Joe's Hospital park and a mere two blocks from the proposed downtown centre. This centre belongs downtown. Does Toronto have its Roger's and Air Canada Centres downtown or 20 km out of town? Did Chicago and other cities not recently build in the downtown areas and they are now the best areas of those cities. You nay sayers are entitled to your opinion, but just accept it when the decision goes against you in the interests of the majority of the citizens. Again, you are entitled to your opinion, and the most important thing in our society is that you continue to your freedome of expression.
10/24/2012 12:43:14 PM
tsb says:
What do the other 108,300 people think?
10/24/2012 12:47:27 PM
jb says:
You want input from 28,000 kids regarding the location?
10/24/2012 5:06:47 PM
tsb says:
The average age of the people attending this meeting was probably over 60. The 28,000 kids will be the ones using it in the future, and paying for it 10 years from now, if they decide to stay.

And what of the 80,500 adults? Most that I know support the downtown multiplex idea.
10/24/2012 5:33:43 PM
jb says:
I'm all for a downtown location but suggesting everyone in the city should have a say is nonsense. The 28,000 is our population from age 0-18 years. The majority of this population cannot comprehend the issue and would be heavily influenced by their parents.
10/25/2012 12:29:10 AM
becker says:
Pretttttty sure he said 108,300 people. Not 28,000 kids. You must be one of the seniors shaking your cane at change. Get your eyes checked.
10/24/2012 6:49:40 PM
jb says:
Pretttttty sure that the 108,300 mentioned is suggesting that everyone that makes up the population of Thunder Bay should have a say in it's location which is absolutely ridiculous. Do you actually need someone to tell you why?
10/25/2012 12:22:32 AM
Common cents says:
Sounds like the North Core BIA does not like the the idea of a vote.....

Maybe they should pay a portion of this venture......
10/25/2012 7:26:25 PM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
I will just bet that buzzerd has all kinds of knowledge of intercity development...better keep his five dollars cause he will need it to pay his share of the increased taxes(if he is even a taxpayer) to pay for this 106m. gamble. maybe all your knowledge can explain why cities with many times the population of T.Bay are building facilities for under 50m. and still struggling to pay for them....yeh your right, we need to understand that the needs of people with a vested interest in seeing this facility downtown know better.
10/24/2012 12:53:48 PM
buzzerd says:
You are right, I don't have any experience in real-estate development which is why I listen to the people who do. The location has absolutely nothing to to with it's affordability.
10/24/2012 3:47:18 PM
stuck? says:
Could be that the middle aged to elderly folks don't exactly feel safe walking 5-10 minutes down a poorly lit side street where there is potential for muggings and derelicts.

Winter makes for slippery conditions not to mention all of the sloped areas that would make it incredibly harder for people with disabilities to maneuver.

Totally agree to let the people vote on a site and not just have the city dictate where they feel the best option would be.

Willing to bet that a lot of people would be opposed to even building a multiplex in the first place. Of course, that's all just here say and maybe I'm wrong. But maybe I'm right?
10/24/2012 12:53:53 PM
fastball says:
Honestly, I'm down in the North Side all the time - and I cannot ever remember seeing elderly people sliding and rolling down Red River Road in the winter.
I don't want confuse the issue with crazy talk - but maybe, JUST MAYBE, the city will address some issues like lighting, sidewalk snow removal and security.
Seriously, what's the point of a city council then? If we're going to revisit every issue that someone disagrees with - and have put it to a vote so EVERY SINGLE PERSON can have their say...what's the point of elections?
We trust them to do all the grunge work...but somehow they all turn into incompetent idiots that need their hands held when there's a big decision to make? (Let me remind everyone here that NO decision has been finalized and not ONE DOLLAR sunk into any projects)
Honest to god..I'm sorry some people don't like the North Side selection. Too bad. Push your council to address some of the issues that seem that to be a problem.
10/24/2012 1:25:05 PM
eastender says:
The major issue here is not about safety, or parking, or location, although those issues are important. It is about a small vocal minority who want to be catered to, but have no clue about financial responsibility. Theres a smell of rotten fish comming from this cities administration and council. They are not to be trusted. I would bet a dollar to a donut that a plebiscite would shut this project down faster than you can say hockey puck. If you are so sure that this is a slam dunk, why would you not want a plebiscite, just so you could say 'I told you so'. Besides, Innova Park is a five minute drive from anywhere you would want to go after the event, park your car, and get out and walk all you want, oh, I do assume you own a car. Oh, and lack of parking in the North core is a no brainer for putting this overpriced bubble at Innova Park, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
10/25/2012 1:13:41 AM
fastball says:
Just curious....what's the rotten smell coming from Administration? Honestly, I don't see it.
The city's vision for the past decade, all the way from the Waterfront Planning stage - is that the north core would be the entertainment district, and the South side would be an administrative district. They got a study done, looking at various sites and got a list of pros and cons on each proposal - and made a decision. Honestly - where's the "rotten smell" in all of that?
OK, there's a perceived parking issue right now. I'm thinking that a lot of the buzz is hearsay ("Oh, I HEARD there's no parking"), and not based on actual fact. But remember, there's a parking structure to be built, and I'm assuming an effort to be made to create some more parking lots in the area.
Honest to God, do you people not get the concept?? The point is to create a district downtown - complete with food, drink and entertainment - all within a reasonable walk from a facility.
10/25/2012 10:02:49 AM
eastender says:
Just where did this ideas of a North Core Entertainment district come from? Why is it essential to designate any area of town as an entertainment district? This isnt Toronto or Minneapolis, that we need to establish districts. This idea benefits only North core businesses. Its time to locate this thing centrally, where it will benefit the entire city. Innova park is the ideal location for this Multiplex, and the gut feeling of most people is that that is where it belongs.
10/26/2012 12:11:40 AM
eastender says:
The rotten smell is that there is a hidden agenda in shoehorning this thing into the North Core. It doesnt make any sense, except for a small but influential group of people, (The BIA?) who will benefit the most from this project.
10/26/2012 12:16:13 AM
conker2012 says:
If these 50 people pay for the plebecite go ahead (plebecites would cost ~$350K-400K).

To ease the minds of these old farts cameras could be installed with the cost savings of the downtown location. BTW it is easier to prey on a senior in a parking lot in the middle of the bush than it is to prey on a senior walking down a busy street filled with businesses that would be open and people walking around. I doubt they have been to an event center in a major city since they lack the understanding of how people drive away crime not bush and fields of asphalt. Plus the downtown north core location is not like the FWG that is on the edge of the DT and surrounded by residential properties. The parking in the downtown location is all in areas that are well lite and have business that are open along all the walking routes.

Everyone that I know that has been jumped has occured in park or along residential areas that had cover where the thugs could hide. This would be similar to IP site.
10/24/2012 12:54:52 PM
conker2012 says:
BTW your taxes are goin up if you have read the MPAC statement in your mail. Since the property resale market has skyrocketed in the last two years MPAC is adding ~25% to the value of your home so based on this by 2016 expect a 25% increase to your municipal taxes. This is ~$45M more per year more from municipal taxes by 2016. So the question of whether we can afford the event center is a non issue even with the infrastructure shortfalls.
10/24/2012 1:05:43 PM
fastball says:
God...not again. We have a infinitesimally small group of citizens who have a problem with the proposed site location, and want to rally others to their cause. No offense, but honestly - too bad. You voted these councillors into office to make decisions for the city - and then you want to do an end-around and undercut their decision because YOU don't like their decision. I'm sorry, you can't please everyone's personal needs and tastes ALL the time.
You just might have to walk 5-8 minutes. I'm sorry you're old, or you're not comfortable with a neighbourhood. I'm sorry you might have to do SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
The vision of the City has been utilizing the North Core as the entertainment zone...not putting our entertainment in the middle of the bush, in an industrial zone on top of a swamp that sinks 3 inches a year - just because 50 people have a problem.
I don't mean to minimize your concerns, but the North Core is not a HORRIBLE choice. It's just that you don't personally like it.
10/24/2012 1:08:25 PM
yqt says:
"Concerned Taxpayers"??? Bahahah, they're just "Friends of Marina Park" in disguise. And a they've brought a few of their pals from "Friends or the NorWesters".

You see people, this town is what it is because of these people. For the past 30+ years these are the people that have hindered development and opposed everything. We're 30 years behind the rest of the world. If it doesn't suit these peoples personal agenda, they don't want it.
There is plenty of us who want this development, and you'll hear our voices drain you our. Have a stupid plebiscite, you'll lose.
I just wish the local circus clowns would just pack their junk, and leave town. I'm absolutely sick of this repeated garbage.
10/24/2012 1:08:26 PM
yqtyqt says:
NOT TO BE CONFUSE WITH YQT, but:

We held a plebiscite on our contribution to the new hospital. It was a small contribution ($25 mill) compared to the minimum $106 mil being offered by the proponents. So tell me why we can't have a plebiscite on the multiplex?

It is highly doubtful that the pro vince with unpredecented debt can contribute.Our two local bootlickers have opted for sending borrowed money to the liberal faithful including Buchanen, Fricot, Global Sticks and to waterfront poles. The feds under our dipper reps have no clout.

What will the annual debt payments on $106 mill amount to. And what will the tax increase for borrowing this money amount to on the average household.

But more importantly, will Thunder Bay still be out there begging for money for sewage treatment problems. Will this project kill the lawsuits that we face.

Will council simply take the path of least resistance and buy a handful of hockey nuts their 5700 seat arena. Who will pay for this all
10/24/2012 2:33:30 PM
ring of fire dude says:
Good post . For 106 million (Projected cost today), we sure are not getting much , just another building that looks like it came from the same Architect that designed the Airport Terminal .
10/24/2012 5:46:04 PM
yqt says:
Ya, definitely not to be confused with!
I'm the originator, not the duplicator.

Why can't have a plebiscite? More like why should we have a one? The Gardens is a dump, it's past it life expectancy.
I invited a couple from out of town five years ago to a Thunderwolves game. The were amazed at the fan support and great hockey product. They just couldn't believe that "the ancient dump" (Gardens) was the cities main arena. I agreed, what more could I have said?

As for who would foot the bill? Damn right the city better approach the provincial and federal governments for cash. How much money leaves this town for taxes, as opposed to what is spent by both governments here?

I've lived in this city for the last 35yrs and am sick of the anchor that's dragged us down that whole time. I pay just over 72 hundred a year in municipal taxes, and I'm suppose to let these "friends of" groups determine every issue this city has for me?. FORGET ABOUT IT!!!!

10/24/2012 7:50:42 PM
yqtyqt says:
If you measure how long you've existed in TBay, then I've live here 64 years.

The FW Gdns is past its expiry date, I agree. But so has the sewage system. We've been on a downward spiral for 20 years. But basic services are at the top of the list as far as I'm concerned.

When youre out there begging for donations for those who are victims of flood/sewage backup, that takes priority over the wishes of multi-millionaires
10/25/2012 10:01:05 AM
yqtyqt says:
So who has the money.

`¨Damn right the city better approach the provincial and federal governments for cash`

They are broke. Clear and simple. Nothing to be had, Nothing left. GOne to the liberal faithful on the provincial front. Gone to austerity on the federal front.
10/25/2012 10:09:40 AM
tbayguy009 says:
OMG ... and where is Lori when someone comments like you just did.

She would post and post and post (for years now)

Name two MPP's who have brought more money to this area in the history of all politics. BILLIONS brought to TBay. Did ya miss those?

YOU pay 72 hundred in taxes, because YOU want the government to spend its money foolishly on stupid stuff like YOUR gladiator games areana.

If YOU need that to keep YOUR life in a balance, I could care less. In fact I feel sorry for you, since your life would be empty without this.

Pay YOUR taxes then. And pay more and more. The feds and the province will need to repay the money YOU want to borrow from them as well.

The provincial government is broke. The legislature is CLOSED. Every dirty political trick is being exposed.

And YOU still want a multiplex? Get off MY tax bill, you money sucker.

AND a plebicite is a legal obligation of city council.

Or should this place become lawless now.

As well as corrupt.
10/25/2012 11:20:16 AM
yqt says:
Re-read your garbage. When you make a point that actually makes sense, get back to me.

Get off your tax bill?
Bahaha, As far as I'm concern, your on mine.
Money sucker?
Last I checked, I earn my last paycheck, and the one before that, and the one before that. Who am I sucking from?
So what if taxes go up slightly to fund this project. Nothings free in this worlkd. Cause you can't afford a tax increase, that's your problem. NOT MINE!!
10/25/2012 5:58:12 PM
patti says:
yqt ~
ding, ding, ding, ding ~~ **JACKPOT **

"Concerned Taxpayers"??? Bahahah, they're just "Friends of Marina Park" in disguise. And a they've brought a few of their pals from "Friends or the NorWesters". ~
"I just wish the local circus clowns would just pack their junk, and leave town"

personally ~
i just wish they'd all take up Scientology and board the next space ship :))))))))))))))))
10/24/2012 9:04:29 PM
thunderbaycouncel says:
why are people even wasting their time? No matter what it will be in the north core downtown. period. WASTE OF TIME!!!!
10/24/2012 1:17:00 PM
DougMyers says:
Hey Ray and the rest of your group.

Until a plebicite is held, please do not assume you speak for the majority of citizens!

For my money, I beleive you do not!

Personally, I see not benefit to locating an Event Center in Innova Park.

Let's build an entertainment district. To do so, let's lets build on the one that is already started. Let's add to the current businesses and not take away from them.

Let us progress and finally stop the regress.

Finally, the mining center of excellence would eventually seem like a really odd place for an event center.
10/24/2012 1:26:28 PM
passlake says:
safety and parking are going to be issues no matter where the multiplex is located.

Innova Park does NOT have the other amenities and businesses that downtown PA does. There's a reason most cities put their arena/event center downtown. Just look at how Winnipeg has changed since the MTS center went in. Their downtown is a lot more vibrant and alive than it used to be.
10/24/2012 1:41:42 PM
Dan Dan says:
Innova Park is an absolutely brutal location. There is nothing going for it whatsoever, aside from parking. There are no supporting local businesses.

People mention Montanas, etc, but these are not within short walking distance. Event centres need to have shops, restaurants, etc. close by within a few minutes WALK to the event. Unless, of course, you are in favour of drinking and driving.

The North core has everything in place already, and is the gathering place for many festivals and events already. The only question has been parking, and that is easily remedied by parking structures.

No one who has thought this through rationally would support Innova Park.
10/24/2012 1:43:04 PM
CM Punk says:
This issue needs to be put to a vote no doubt.
Looking back at the history of our fair city, nothing is ever done on time or on budget for that matter.
The city clowns will most likely not put this to a democratic vote because they know it will be turned down and in a big way.
Be at the meeting come November 21st as I will.
Voices of the voiceless need to be heard.
None of this "I know Silvio" stuff because at the end of the day, our tax dollars are on the line.
MPAC is sending letters in the mail so keep an eye out for that too.
I am the WWE champion, rise with me and get your Best in the world t shirt at the Aud before the meeting.
10/24/2012 1:43:27 PM
T.O.Guy says:
Everyone is allowed to have an opinion , but ive never seen so much complaining from a city since ive moved here. First of all have you people ever been to a major event where there is thousands of people ? Yes there will be a bit of traffic !! Seniors are afraid ? With this many people after an event there is safety in numbers , besides its not undsafe to start with. Also you cant expect to park 50 feet from the door !! One final note , im betting the majority of the people at last nights meeting live in the south side .
10/24/2012 1:51:38 PM
Jubjub says:
First off, the city won't get funds from the provincial and federal gov'ts and we cannot afford it otherwise so chances of seeing the events centre built in the next decade is miniscule.

Secondly, if they were really concerned taxpayers, shouldn't they be protesting the huge price tag and not the location?

Thirdly, isn't having their meeting downtown hypocritical? How many of them were robbed last night?
10/24/2012 1:52:31 PM
ibrando says:
fastball
Your McBreak is over, get back to the fry machine before you ruin my lunch. Innova Park is settling 3 inches per year? I wonder if True Grit Engineering realized this before they spent millions on a new facility?
10/24/2012 1:53:19 PM
fastball says:
Really?? McBreak? Why the schoolyard taunts? Unless that is, you REALLY are 14 years old, in which case, I COMPLETE understand where you're coming from.
I war referring to the whole Northwood area - it's a bog. The water table is the highest in the city. Houses sink. Unless they put tons of fill down there...the same thing will happen. Not to mention 10M dollars or more to connect up to Golf Links Road or the Expressway.
10/24/2012 3:40:27 PM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
Council is elected to represent the people, they are not simply thrown the keys to the vault and told go ahead you have 4 years to do what you want, and no one will ask you any questions. If this council and administration can't convince people that this is a viable process then it should not proceed until they can...with the city already being 200m. or so in debt and a crumbling infrastructure and lawsuits still pending it is not responsible to be pursuing this and adding many millions to our debt. Any home owner that would handle his own finances in this matter would find themselves in big trouble fast...This is about far more than parking and even the location
10/24/2012 2:15:37 PM
Abe says:
The majority of people in this city are PATHETIC!!!
10/24/2012 2:18:51 PM
RBosch says:
"Concerned Taxpayers" is an absolute joke for a name. What is their concern based on? Both sites have been shown to be of roughly the same dollar value and the North Core site was chosen based upon other mitigating findings. It is a clear winner! Mr. Smith and his group have tried to disguise their attempt to influence the results by bringing in such things as supposed safety concerns for the seniors.

If, as we move forward, a plebiscite is called for, it should only be to ask the question of whether or not we should build an Event Centre at this time, and not have anything to do with the location. Two phases of a study have clearly indicated that the Downtown North Core is the best site and this study is being done by reputable companies, not by a small group of sign waving citizesn who are upset that their preferred site was not chosen.
10/24/2012 2:47:43 PM
thepoorman says:
I didn't realize the North Core was so rough for seniors. How many attacks from predators and the homeless have their been on them in the last month? Over 50? I'd bet around 75 attacks - it's not winter yet, so the filthy, degenerate derelicts have a lot of fight left in them.
10/24/2012 2:49:54 PM
T_BAY says:
"more than 50 people"

We need this centre. We want this centre. The north core is the PROVEN best location. This is a done deal. Lets build it. People forget democracy is majority rule. Too many think it is what ever is best for me.
10/24/2012 3:24:20 PM
fastball says:
But the trick is to keep demanding votes in hopes that a dedicated "don't like it" crowd eventually outnumber the meh-"I don't care either way" crowd.
I'm alos wondering how many of those elderly and walking-challenged individuals would actually ATTEND a function at the event center, even if their own personal transport device magically materialized them directly into their seats? Seriously, we're holding up the works because Bob and Ethel might maybe go to an event one time?
10/24/2012 4:44:30 PM
Tbay99 says:
When was the city wide vote on this? How is it PROVEN "we" all want this?
10/24/2012 4:46:04 PM
fastball says:
Are to vote on everything now? Speaking of a city-wide vote - we DID have one a while back. It was to elect a city administration, ostensibly to make decisions on this city's future, after soliciting a number of expert opinions and looking at all the pros and cons.
The mayor has stated that the project is just in the drawing book stages, and will not proceed unless there is substantial funding from senior levels of government.
So why doesn't everyone untwist their panties and take a deep breath until we know something concrete?
10/24/2012 5:57:48 PM
TBDR says:
2 years ago... municipal election. Most of the elected candidates previously declared their support for it. We voted for them because of or in spite of that fact. If you don't like their decisions you can have your say in 2 more years...
10/25/2012 10:14:59 AM
eastender says:
Fastball, the only thing experts are good at is spending your money? The only experts that need to be consulted are the ones who will foot the bill, the taxpayer. Ive been around long enough to know that all the experts, and consultants, and we may as well throw in the lawyers too, are interested in is blowing someoneelses money.
10/26/2012 12:28:56 AM
stonecutter says:

downtown is the way to go.
A plebicite is a waste of time and effort.
10/24/2012 3:39:06 PM
becker says:
Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. The people who are opposed to to the north core site, or the multiplex in general, have got to be the same people who oppose EVERYTHING this city does to promote change. Complain about it at the coffee shop, then make your complaint here. 50 people express their concerns....50 concerned taxpayers. Unsafe location for seniors?!?!?! Are you kidding me!?!?!?! The worst possible complaints are coming forward. Get used to it "Concerned TaxPayers", "Friends of Marina Park", Friends of Norwester (probably all the same change hating losers anyway), its 2012 for christ sake, our city is behind the times compared to other cities because of people like you. This multiplex WILL go through. The site WILL be downtown, say what you will, but it is going to happen. You will find that their are more people in this city that have lives and will support an entertainment district that our city can be proud of. GET A LIFE
10/24/2012 4:42:57 PM
Tbay99 says:
LOL! Nice rant, attacking people who do not agree with you makes you sound real credible. How much money do you think this city has? You must be one of "those people" who don't realize all of this "growing" costs MONEY. Not everyone is well-off and can afford increasing tax bills year after year.
10/24/2012 9:30:36 PM
Yayfordevelopment says:
BEST COMMENT SO FAR!
10/25/2012 4:34:16 PM
Tom Sanderson says:
Some complain of location. Some complain of cost.
Do you want a short ride to Innova Park so you save a nickel on gas but pay higher taxes because of cost? And you do know there are going to be astronomical cost overruns jacking the total up a couple, maybe 10 mill more. Spend the nickel and drive the extra 5 mins.
10/24/2012 4:51:32 PM
Young Professional says:
Downtown PA is the obvious location. I'll speak for myself.
10/24/2012 4:52:44 PM
eastender says:
There is nothing obviouse about it. Except if you happen to own a business in that area.
10/26/2012 12:39:22 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Show me the money.
10/24/2012 5:24:05 PM
SomeGuy says:
Yelling the loudest does not make you most correct.
10/24/2012 5:41:55 PM
jimmyboy says:
Lets all just simplify this...you the public should simply demand a plebiscite....forget these tiny groups such as this one and their wants....lets call from those who fit the bigger picture in this scenario...guaranteed their numbers would be large in number...at least I would hope that would be the case.
10/24/2012 6:39:01 PM
residentj says:
The irony amongst so many of the reasons against the downtown location is humorous. Concerns about safety are unfounded. Having MORE PEOPLE downtown INCREASES PERSONAL SAFETY. I'm having troubles understanding how adding an entertainment facility makes the "degenerate" population multiply. It's as if magic degenerate fairy dust will be sprinklered over Port Arthur and we'll descend into lawless chaos. Since I work essentially across the street from the proposed site, I'll be lobbying my landlord to board up my windows. Daylight be damned! I must protect myself and my coworkers from the rampant, homeless, criminals.

Did this group fear for their personal safety while at the meeting, which occurred in the same neighbourhood, just mere blocks from the future centre of anarchy?

As an aside, there's no way, no how, that a commercial subdivision can in anyway be considered an entertainment district. Poor urban planning put us in this mess. Lets let the City final do the right thing!
10/24/2012 6:50:53 PM
Tiredofit says:
Need I remind all of you insensitive idiots that complain about the seniors, the bulk of them help build this dam town. Give them the respect they are due. Unreal how disrespectful some can be. IDIOTS PLAIN AND SIMPLE

Ok I feel better and am going call my grandparents and thank them for everything they've done. I suggest you do the same..
10/24/2012 6:52:35 PM
humnchuck says:
The image of wheelchairs and the elderly flying uncontrolled down a dimly-lit Red River Road and across the tracks into Marina Park, chased by hordes of muggers has made my day. :) Awesome!

Agreed that there's a whole lot of whining and complaining in this city. About pretty much everything, too. If only it was 1972 when things were great...
10/24/2012 7:17:02 PM
homelessteen says:
There will be no vote because the city knows full well the younger generation won't give the effort it takes to vote this in.

If there is a vote there should be an option to not build this event centre at all.
10/24/2012 7:24:47 PM
ring of fire dude says:
The City won't put it to a vote because there would be an enormous turnout of voters who would certainly either turf out or support the Aldermen/women once their stance on the Event Center is known . They must be shaking in their boots along with Tim Commisso who will not survive with a new council after the next election . For the record I think the site crammed into 1 square block is a utter joke , it should be in Marina Park either on the Pool 6 site or in between Pool 6 and the new Hotel . At least there's room for parking for both sites .
10/25/2012 1:14:57 AM
Chaos says:
God bless these people. We need people to stand up to self interest groups padding their own pockets.

Fastball: what lot downtown do you own?
10/24/2012 8:21:47 PM
fastball says:
In the absence of any real, identifiable targets to accuse - do the next best thing, INVENT one! Now it's a CONSPIRACY by mysterious, unknown individuals who were in on the process, and who have been quietly buying up all the property in the area.
Pull your head out, Chaos. I'm just a working stiff who happens to work about a 5-minute walk away from the proposed site (oh, I live in Westfort). I walk EVERY SINGLE day down there...there's no slippery icy inclines causing wheelchairs to careen wildly into Lake Superior. There's lots of restaurants and clubs there that WILL be open in the evening for business. Trust me, if there's people around - a lot of places will be open. Given time, the area will improve.
God, we've got the most beautiful scenery in Canada RIGHT IN FRONT of the proposed place. It's a postcard there. And you want to stick it in the middle of the bush, with a freeway and muskeg as scenery?
I'm OK with the site, IF we can find a way to afford it. I'm not for bankruptcy
10/24/2012 9:42:24 PM
hardrawkin says:
Kind of ironic that they had to hold their meeting in PA.
Maybe if they met at Innova Park they would have had a better turnout ????
10/24/2012 8:40:42 PM
westfort says:
Location aside, why the hell are we building something that is going to lose at least 1 million a year?

The support for the Wolves isn't that great either. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't even sell out the playoffs last year. Go to any game and you will see empty seats. Granted, the Gardens is way past its prime and we do need a new arena, but a huge events centre is unnecessary right now. Who is going to come here? It's not as easy as stopping on the way through. It costs a lot to host a concert/event. Thunder Bay is a great hockey city and IMO could support a minor league team. The problem is the isolation factor causing high travel costs to the TBay team as well as others who come here.
How about just having a new arena built with decent parking (1 spot/2 seats). The Wolves can (hopefully) share it with a minor league team. But if any of you think we're going to get any bigger acts than the Aud gets, dream on or get your wallets out and be prepared to pay big for them.
10/24/2012 8:52:35 PM
yqt says:
WOW, What a title... "Concerned Taxpayers Chairman" Was this an appointed position? or was Mr Smith voted in? Maybe self appointed? What credentials does he have? I'd really like to know.
"parking and safety issues for senior citizens". Really? That's it? That's your main and only concerns? Pretty weak statement. What exactly is the issue? Sounds like the opening line from a eighth graders speech. Yeah, F, YOU FAIL!!!
10/24/2012 9:13:28 PM
WeWantChange says:
is it just me or are all the people who want the multiplex in Innova senior citizens? how many of them will be going out after a hockey game or concert anyways? better yet how many will actually go to a game compared to the young ppl of this city who want change!!!
10/24/2012 9:24:22 PM
keiths31 says:
Wrong. I'm not a senior, but I want it at Innova Park.
10/25/2012 9:19:53 AM
stuck? says:
Not even 30 yet, and I don't necessarily THINK that the North Core is the best spot myself. I think of all those poor house owners who won't be able to park on their own street in front of their own houses when there's an event playing.

Just me though. I've got reasons to be FOR Innova park and AGAINST Innova park.

Perhaps it just shouldn't be built until we have a solid game plan for economic turnaround and growth.
10/25/2012 12:21:47 PM
honcho says:
just to note..my friend's grandmother did fall on the north side last winter...coming down Camelot St. from the courthouse she fell just before Court St. and broke her hip...not the only one to fall in this area...
10/24/2012 11:22:00 PM
jb says:
are you suggesting that seniors don't fall down on the south side of town?
10/25/2012 12:37:20 AM
SomeGuy says:
Honcho correlation doesn't imply causation.
10/25/2012 8:50:17 AM
SMB says:
We already had our plebiscite. We called it "the 2010 municipal election". You don't like what Council is doing, VOTE THEM OUT, instead of returning every single incumbent on the ballot (notwithstanding the mayor).

Lemmings.
10/25/2012 8:36:24 AM
grs says:
After reading all of this it's pretty obvious what we as a city should do. With everyone's concern about seniors and accessibility we can't afford the $$$ on an event centre. It's pretty important and obvious that we spend the money on bulldozing and flattening the hill that is by PACI leading to Magnus Theatre so an not to have seniors slipping and sliding to get to the show. I can't believe we as a city have ignored this glaring mistake all these years!

Of course, that would mean Hillcrest park too - can't have a sudden drop off there either and the senior crowd needs their accessibility there too.

10/25/2012 8:58:10 AM
redwing says:
Plebiscite! We already had one. Our city leaders were elected to make decisions for us and that is what I want them to do. I really don't care what a bunch of grayheads with nothing better to do say! Half of the people there probably don't even live in the city for half the year as they depart down south.
10/25/2012 9:07:07 AM
truthfoundhere says:
If you has been keeping track, forcasts have been made of 13,000+ new jobs to be based out of our city once the mining initiatives are in place. There are at least three new hotels in the works. Locally we see considereable growth in the Medical/Health Science Industry. Our Port has been busier than it has been in many years. The big box stores are expanding and adding new locations or are coming to our city for the first time. There is ongoing construction at TBIA as record numbers of passengers are reported. More than one new office building has been announced recently. The Prov. is spending millions to upgrade our local highway system. Construction companies continue to arrive, and set up shop. This shows that growth is coming. I don't think we will have any trouble filling an event centre of this size. This will be great for tourism, with potential for bringing a great return on investment. If those from outside our city can see it's potential we should be able to see it to.
10/25/2012 9:23:48 AM
bttnk says:
The good old seniors of Thunder Bay are out again in full force. Arm chair politicians. Obstructors of progress. Chronic complainers. I invite you to show up on November 21st at the Community Auditorium to hear the presentation of the professionals who have proposed the North Core as the site for the event centre. The younger generation - the future generation are sick and tired of the rhetoric. Get on board with the rejuvination of the city or keep quiet.
10/25/2012 10:01:46 AM
Tim H. says:
There is no reason to fear a plebescite if you actually believe in democracy.

Its apparent those who do not want a plebescite wish to silence any opposing views, regardless of the laws and principles this nation is based upon.

If youre scared of a plebescite, how can you look at yourself in the mirror everyday? Then again, judging by the content of the comments here attacking "old" people for no reason other than some disagree with them is downrightt disgraceful.

If you attackers wonder why Thunder Bay suffers the stigmas it does, you need look no further than your own mirror for the cause.

Plebescite is absolutely required here, especially when the legal ramifications of such a project like this fall far outside the realm of municipal government duties.

Why are YOU scared of a plebescite?
10/25/2012 10:22:28 AM
fastball says:
Well, that's like me asking you to take a lie detector test every time you say something.
If you didn't lie, you shouldn't have anything to worry about, right? So what's the big deal?
But realistically, that gets tiresome and ultimately a gigantic waste of time and money to do this every single time there is an differing point of view on a civic issue.
We voted these councillors into office to carry on a vision of the city, and to make responsible choices. It's not as if we have ONE guy up there making unilateral decisions. It's not a monarchy - there's a dozen of them. They didn't ALL get stupid at once. Stupidity doesn't hit only on Monday nights. They have studied this issue, in consultation with professionals...and come up with a reasonably informed decision.
Unless you assume that we're all just puppets of a shadowy X-file conspiracy involving City Hall, property owners and contractors - that councillors' decision oughta count for something.
10/25/2012 3:01:17 PM
peas08 says:
I believe that with all this banter they have proved the point that a plebesite is needed even though they are expensive.
10/25/2012 10:24:12 AM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
To those who choose to offer your opinions on these types of sites in a polite reasoned manner regardless which side of the issue qudos...to those who behind the cloak of anonymity come up with their childish disrespectful comments...shame...When it is your taxes that are building this project that is the only expertise a person needs to offer an opinion for or against. Some of the people who attended this meeting were ww11 veterans and one actually stood up and supported the downtown location...Comments offered with knowlwedge and RESPECT are always valued...immature name calling is never welcome or helpfull
10/25/2012 10:40:53 AM
Tim H. says:
by the way, nice poll there tbt news.

why no option of "none at all"?

are you also scared of the outcome?
10/25/2012 10:51:40 AM
lori says:
I understand the desire to locaate in the core, but I don't agree with the logic. That doesn't make me right and them wrong but I do question how many people will be walking in January at 30 below to go to their favourite watering hole.

I also question the need for this facility. The Gardens does need replacing but does it have to be replaced by this project or is this a lets do it big once. I question the logic of the big acts and the large conferences. Some may come, but is it enough to justify the expenditure and the negative impact to the auditorium.

We all want this nice big facility but we do not have 200,000 extra people around us like Duluth.

Again my opinion but I do not see the folks in Minneapolis, coming in droves to T.Bay when they have so many other choices around them.

We seems so focused on making Marian Park the same as everyone else thinking it is the answer. I do not believe it is.

I am not against progress. I question whether this is progress.
10/25/2012 10:54:16 AM
tbayguy009 says:
posted earlier "How much money leaves this town for taxes"

Top 10 employers in TBay.

Thunder Bay Regional Health Sciences 2,500
Lakehead University 2,250
Lakehead District School Board Elementary & Secondary Education 2,200
Government of Ontario/Mgmt. 1,849
City of Thunder Bay Municipal Government 1,855
St. Joseph's Care Group Complex Care, Rehabilitation, Mental Health & Addiction Services, Long Term Care 1,700
Thunder Bay Catholic District School Board Education 1,521
Confederation College Education 637
Bombardier Trans 950
Federal Government Various 653

For a total of 16,115 government tax suckers. (Bombardier is currently living on a government sponsored contract.)

Stats Can Sept employed 59,600. So 27% of TBay lives on government money or more than 1 in 4. The other 3 need to pay taxes to support them, by generating revenue TO the government not passing the same buck though over, around and through.

This whole scam is just to get contactors in on this government gravy train.
10/25/2012 11:04:08 AM
humnchuck says:
So I gather you favour a city with no medical facilities, schools, infrastructure or services, or major manufacturer (and property tax payer)? Sounds like a great place.

Your reckon any of those folks in your 16000 "tax suckers" pay any sales tax or property taxes? Gas taxes, etc.? If so, doesn't that make them taxpayers as well?

Also, you're going to need to explain how TBRHS, for example, is part of the "scam...just to get contactors in on this government gravy train."
10/25/2012 4:56:16 PM
tbayguy009 says:
Look, if you can't understand the concept that collecting a paycheck from the government and giving back a little in gasline tax (and other taxes) to it, does nothing to generate ACTUAL, REAL revenue TO government accounts, then there is nothing I can help you with. Seriously, basic math isn't a strong point of yours.

We used to have systems of government that did NOT cost as much as they do now. Is that another concept you cannot grasp.

This city sucking (and living) on government funds in its entirety.

Do the numbers quoted from actual government websites disturb you?

FACE the ACTUAL reality of what TBay is. A government money black hole.

The real shame is the arrogance of the people who want to deny this truth.

Some resident wanted to complain about paying 72 hundred in taxes AND then in the same reply wants more money wasted on this multiplex dream.

NO, NO, NO. Not one tax 'sucker' pays enough in taxes to pay for their wages. Period.

Facts disturb you. Don't they.
10/25/2012 9:29:37 PM
tbayguy009 says:
While you bring up medical facilities.

How abot the closing an old age home costing taxpers $3,600 a day to operate, only to put the people in the hospitol at a taxpayers cost of $27,000 a day.

Meanwhile Regen Med sucks on taxpayers money for it's VERY EXISTANCE.

You use scare tactics to make it sound like all that money is needed. The people need every one, on every government payroll, to get by in their daily lives. Societies existance depends on this.

News flash, government employees are supposed to contribute to society, not live off of it.

Cut government by 1/2 and the world would still function.

Maybe, just maybe some governments would be able to run without borrowing money or creating money out of thin air.

This multiplex is exactly that. A government waste of taxpayer resources.
10/25/2012 9:43:49 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
He didn't say that. We KNOW we're being suckered, again and again and again...by all three gov't levels.
10/27/2012 6:45:29 PM
greenthumb says:
A plebiscite is a vote by the people of an entire city to decide an issue. Voters are asked to accept or reject a given proposal rather than choose between alternative proposals. Due to the 106 million dollar expenditure, the potential over runs that inevitably happen, the 1.5 million dollars that the citizens of the city will have to find every year to cover the deficit that will occur (because this project will not be able to break even or sustain itself even with any revenues generated) and the resulting increases to everyone's taxes to cover the resulting debt and deficits, I do believe a plebiscite should be done to determine whether we can AFFORD a multiplex. Remember, the government does not fund arenas. They may fund the attached conference centre only. The total cost of the arena will be paid for by the taxpayers of this city. In a time when we as taxpayers are being told infrastructure is where our tax dollars need to go, why are we spending 106 million dollars elsewhere?
10/25/2012 11:20:12 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
I feel scammed by the local construction company/city hall mafiosi...the question should be whether or not to build this white elephant, to begin with, yes or no. But, in the sad style so ANNOYINGLY TYPICAL of Blunder Bay, another expensive decision is being rammed at the taxpayer. SHOW ME THE MONEY...or are you really going to blow MILLIONS on song and dance, when the Province is going under and cutting services? Is Bai de Tonnere a "Little Laval" or what folks?
10/25/2012 11:30:54 AM
truthseeker says:
New arenas, multiplexes, stadiums more often than not have zero positive impact on a city. They usually have a negative impact . Don't believe what the consultants say about economic impact. They are usually wrong and they are paid by the city to tell them(admin) to find a conclusion to what they(admin) want to hear.

There has been independent studies done and you can find them on the internet stating when you build new arenas stadiums multiplexes, you're more than likely going to have a negative impact on the city.

Usually the taxpayer loses big and has to pay for a money losing facility and the consequential damage caused by them.

Sorry to break this news to everyone because the media, council, administration and the multiplex ballwashers won't. Sad thing is i'm going to be right, not because its cockiness , it's the truth and the multiplex ballwashers can't handle the truth!

There are certain cities who shouldn't have a multiplex and tbay is one of them!
10/25/2012 11:45:50 AM
canuckman55 says:
Could you reference one of these science backed independent studies? I read on the internet that Michael Jackson is still alive... it must be true.
10/25/2012 12:29:07 PM
fastball says:
So what differentiates us from Red Deer, Brandon, Drumheller , Sault Ste. Marie, Kamloops or Kelowna??
Why are THOSE places worthy of a facility, and not us lowly TBay-ites? We don't deserve functions? We don't deserve concerts, sporting events or conventions? We don't rate any of those things?
What possible negative impact could hosting any of those have on the city?? I'm glad you backed up your ridiculous assertion with facts.
THere's a difference between running the place at a profit, and making money for the city. The last Brier brought in 23M for London. That's money for hotels, rental cars, restaurants, bars and stores. Those are OUR LOCAL people who work in those places!
Your logic (or lack of any) is staggering.
PS..notice that I didn't refer to your position with anything as crude as "ballwasher"?
10/25/2012 1:18:28 PM
keiths31 says:
We HAVE an arena downtown and how many businesses have opened up around it? How many people drop by the bars and restaurants in the area before or after a game now? *crickets* That's what I thought. A new arena in downtown PA isn't going to produce new businesses in the area. We are not Toronto/Winnipeg/Montreal. We are not an urban city. Stop thinking we are.
10/25/2012 12:10:46 PM
conker2012 says:
No businesses opened around the current downtown area because it is build in a residential area. Had the FWG been build on the land that the former shelter house once stood, it might be a different story.

If the Northcore location had been the empty lot across from auto one it would have the same non impact as FWG, but the proposed site is within a block of the main drag and it is surrounded by commercial buildings including a hotel adjacent to the structure. This is why it will lead to a success.

On your second point that we are not an urban center. I would agree that we are not urban city, but why can't we be? I know change is scary, but let's look at two the benefits of urban spaces. Less infrastructure is required to support urban areas so taxes are less for everyone. A down side is congestion if the area is not balanced to prevent overcrowding. Urban areas are good for everyone. Why do you think that Toronto pays some of the lowest taxes in the province? Urban Living!
10/25/2012 12:47:44 PM
keiths31 says:
There are many businesses within a 60 second walk from the Gardens. Victoria Avenue is one block to the south. That isn't residential.

We can't be an urban city because we aren't big enough to be. We can dream all we want but it isn't going to happen. I love Thunder Bay and want to see it grow and succeed. I own two businesses, opening up a third next year and have plans on another in the south core in a couple of years. I believe in this city. But we are fooling ourselves if we think we can be an urban city.
10/25/2012 5:23:38 PM
becker says:
Maybe because its smack dab in a residential area. For christ sake, people have their homes built right across from it! But hey, if you want to go to a hockey game at the Gardens, and go for a drink at Newfies Pub or grab a bite at shelter house, be my guest. Did you happen to notice that most business are LEAVING downtown FW because their windows are always getting broken, or their steps getting barfed on? Gargoyles, Prospector, Crocks, Foundry, The Sovereign, (just to name a few) these are fantastic and popular places that I am sure would love to have people visit their business's after taking in a hockey game or show.
10/25/2012 4:16:05 PM
conker2012 says:
BTW just so you know the local construction mafiosi cannot build something so big. Ellisdon, Bird, PCL, or another MAJOR contractor will have to build something this big. The locals don't have the capital or equity to bond a project of this size.

And all you nay sayers who haven't read your mail, this will be affordable because your taxes are going up on average of 7% this year. MPAC has systematically re assessed the value of your house and it has gone way up and will continue to go way up until 2016 and beyond.

The tax increase will add $10M to the tax coffers for next year. HMMMM isn't that what our infrastructure deficit is? and by 2016 we should see 25% increase in municipal property taxes. Guess what that means...... $50M more in city coffers. With the ever expanding suburban boundary and limits on the density allowed due to height restrictions out taxes are gonna go up and stay up until we fix the urban sprawl problems.
10/25/2012 12:25:51 PM
Abe says:
At this point, who cares the city is done!!
10/25/2012 12:32:39 PM
Bent_pole says:
I'm thinking this all could have been avoided had we used the money spent on the "bent pole" art at the marina we could have build several multiplex's for all religions, age, and physical ability. Lets sell them for scrap because they are crap!!...and the people rejoiced.
10/25/2012 1:01:19 PM
truthseeker says:
For those of you who are taking shots at seniors: Who are the first ones to bail on the sports teams in thunder bay when they are losing? Surprise, Surprise- the so called selfish young professionals who are in favor of a money losing facility known as the second coming of the abbotsford entertainment and sports centre.
10/25/2012 1:22:10 PM
tex_mex-fry says:
I rent office space on Red River Rd, and run a graphics and branding company from it. I chose the North core because that is where the people are. I was renting in that area long before opening my business and I can safely say that I would never have went back on that decision. Have you ever been on Red River Rd during The Hunger? Or for Music For The Masses? When was the last time that much foot traffic was down by Innova Park?
We've been one city for far too long and people are still thinking in a Fort William & Port Arthur mindset. The North core IS our city centre regardless of what the dinosaurs in this city want to think.
10/25/2012 1:47:14 PM
Abe says:
109 comments, Really?? get a life people and get out of the house!!
10/25/2012 2:50:20 PM
fastball says:
Democracy - so noisy, isn't it?
10/25/2012 3:59:12 PM
Abe says:
tex_mex-fry, would you like a box of tissues for your rant?? calm down
10/25/2012 2:51:41 PM
fastball says:
@Abe - "At this point, who cares the city is done!!"

Mr Pot...meet Mr. Kettle.
10/25/2012 3:58:17 PM
Renegade120860 says:
At this point, it seems this is no longer a "Comments" section, but has become an area where two distinct, age demagraphic groups are slinging venom at each other in the worst way!

Persons from outside this city, either those thinking of moving themseleve/their families here or those considering moving their business here, must really get a second pause after reading these comments, from both sides of this issue.

Remember people, its called "The World Wide Web" and first impressions are enduring!!

Please feel free to discuss both sides of the issue, but try to be respective!
10/25/2012 3:55:56 PM
Yayfordevelopment says:
Dear commentors on TBNEWSWATCH....get a job and quit collecting EI so that you can stay home and post your ridiculous comments....also...beware of the elderly people rolling down the hills of the North side!....

EMBRACE CHANGE!

What do you people care what happens with the Multiplex and where it is located? You are too busy sitting at your computer all day having arguments with eachother.... the only thing that will get you people going to the Multiplex is if they had a couch, computer, and an EI cheque...and I am assuming Twinkies and hard candy

10/25/2012 4:27:34 PM
wayne says:
*yawn*
10/25/2012 5:12:50 PM
GDA says:
Wow,50 people. Fill the Gardens with standing room only and demand a plebiscite. Then you might get some attention. Same bunch that didn't want Marina Park for the most part. Congradulations to council for seeing the process through. Lets get it funded and built. Inova Park never made any sense and the amount of complaining every time someone would have had to pay to park there for every event would have been a lot louder than the 50 concerned taxpayers at this meeting. Concerned taxpayers have to ask themselves, how do you create revenue from paving large tracks of land to park vehicles on? There would be no free parking at Inova Park and it would be pretty hard to run over to the Keg between periods of a hockey game. Travel people, parking is not even an issue. Inova Park would be like a Victoriaville 2.
10/25/2012 5:29:54 PM
twace says:
Perhaps the city should sit back and wait a bit .. see how much extra attention their NEW marina ideas gain.. maybe if enough people show interest in the marina, THEN the multiplex would make more sense in that area?
If not, then perhaps a different location would be in order? I mean really, the attendance that they're expecting to fill this new place is crazy .. is it that impressive now to even contemplate a new multiplex??
Last time I went to a Thunderwolves game, it didn't seem worth the effort or money .. 'course they weren't winning their series at the time ..
10/26/2012 8:50:09 AM
fastball says:
How would you define "interest in the marina"?
We've seen kids and their parents out there in the dead of winter, skating and grabbing hot chocolate in the little food area. We've seen the splash pad used a lot during the hot summer, and people buying ice cream at the little shop there. People are walking the trails a lot now. There's been artistic performances and I've seen wedding ceremonies performed at the Marina. Tourists are walking around and taking pictures of the boats and scenery. Hell, I've even taken out of town friends down there to let them glimpse our greatest visual treasure...Lake Superior and the Giant.
I think those activities would qualify as some "interest", wouldn't you?
10/26/2012 8:02:55 PM
Jon Powers says:
FYI: The City has spent over $2.Million on reports and want to spend over $110,Million on this arena.

Lets spend $380,000.00 to plebiscite the issue to see if the MAJORITY wants any more money thrown at this concept.

Those who are opposed to one are just Dictators!

Great Story!
tbnewswatch.com
10/26/2012 1:37:55 PM
fastball says:
Hmmm.....dictators??
So (let me get this straight) a duly elected city administration of a dozen councillors, after commissioning several feasibility studies comparing the various pros and cons of 6 different sites - makes an informed, calculated decision based on those recommendations and a decade-long vision for the city's direction.
The fact that they don't go running to the general public, asking us to make a decision for them on this weighty issue based on no reports, no research, no studies...just nothing more substantial than "Ooooh, it's too far..it's ALL THE WAY OVER THERE" or "I won't be able to park beside it, I might have to walk 5 minutes".
The fact they don't want to waste ANOTHER half-million dollars on that kind of expert opinion....is a dictatorship??
Not one of us is an accountant with firsthand working knowledge of the city's finances. Or an engineer or consultant who's ACTUALLY studied the situation.
Face it, 98 percent of us are talking out of our hats.
10/26/2012 8:24:33 PM
eastender says:
When the experts and high priced consultants, along with their political cronies, make recommendations that defy all logic, the public has to take over. The logic of the many, outranks the stupidity of the few. In other words, WE dont need no stinkin' consultants to tell us what we already know to be bull. Politicians need to be reigned in, or else they do become dictators, because those who elected them are a bunch of sheep. Dummy up.
10/28/2012 12:36:17 AM
tbayguy009 says:
This whole thing makes a person wonder about the moral character of those DEMANDING the servitude of others by the collection of taxes to fund their dreams.

Meanwhile anyone who is opposed to this white elephant is ASSUMED to be unemployed.

I submit that the wealthy ARE trying to collect employment insurance, just by another means. A government contract.

That's infinately more disgusting. They 'claim' to be wealthy of funds.

I am employed. So is my spouse. I don't need compare notes with morons.

I oppose the spending of taxpayers money on this. There are better uses for over $100 million.

Like Newton's 3rd law, there should be a reaction of equal magnitude, in the opposite direction.

If I could support this concerned taxpayers group, I would. But bless them. Balance this out of control power 'trip'.

On all government levels, money would have to be borrowed and interest paid back.

So with typical cost overruns plus interest on 3 loans, the TRUE cost could be 1/2 a BILLION.
10/26/2012 3:42:56 PM
collie says:
Way out of context!!!

Points to be concerned about are A- purpose of facility (Convention, concert, or hockey) B- location (will support existing businesses or new) C- parking (well this all depends on purpose if only hockey then downtown PA fine only need 100 parking spots BUT if this is gonna be for Conventions and Concerts and Trade Shows ect.. then need LOTS of parking!!
D- can the taxpayers afford it THIS also depends on use cuz if hockey again DONT need it!!!

Innova park has space but does not support alot of existing businesses and this area is all swamp land so gonna be looking at high maintenance expenses, Chosen location in Downtown PA not big enough, no parking, no room to expand and cost alot just to rearrange what is already there!!!

There are other locations which were NEVER brought to public ie old PAGH, the soon to be vacant LPH, CLE grounds, ect..just naming a few and I know there are more. BUT before anymore money gets thrown at this thing PLEBISCITE!
10/26/2012 8:12:48 PM
Chaos says:
fastball: so your employed downtown. HA. Live in westfort (rent right because you don't pay property taxes right?) The multiplex would not assist you then personally? Make your own luck my friend. Not on my tax dollars.

The people who want it
10/26/2012 10:22:54 PM
fastball says:
Chaos...firstly you say I am a property owner down in the North Side, suggesting I endorse the project because I have something to gain.
Now, (help me connect the dots here, because this line of logic eludes me) because I live in Westfort and work in PA - somehow that makes me a renter and not a taxpayer? Heck of a leap there, son.
I respectfully suggest that after 30 years of unionized wages and nearly as long as a homeowner on a nice crescent in Green Acres area - I've paid more than my share of municipal taxes in this city...and have EVERY much a right to voice my opinion as you.
Note that I've managed to voice those opinions without making silly assumptions based on questionable logic - that when exposed to the light of day, make me look like a total jackwad.
10/27/2012 3:18:23 PM
hotchoc says:
To contribute $25 million to a new hospital that was sorely needed, we had to have a plebescite in order to see if the community wanted to go forward.

To contribute $25-40 million for a multi-plex that is WANTED NOT NEEDED, we will not have a vote and we are told that the majority of the community wants this.

It is not going in the location where most of the folks want it to be. It has been shoved down our throats as something that is going to happen. We don't know what our bill is going to be, and the same people that brought us the disaster known as Marina Park are in charge of this.

Has Marina Park improved, of course, but it had better for $65 million. Tens of millions get wasted, and now we are too trust this group to get it right after listening to comments like

"over budget on these types of projects are normal". How about telling us up front what the final bill will be.

don't sell us a car for 10 grand, and then on closing date tell us we owe 5 more.
10/27/2012 8:36:42 AM
tbayguy009 says:
The Hospitol was 58% over budget. They didn't even have the plans drawn up properly before they started the foundation. Used concrete which was out of spec for a northern climate. The grand design is expensive to maintain. Have you ever noticed the dust collection on the window sills? Which get cleaned "whenever budget allows"

Marina project. Installed 30 amp service to docks. Oops. Specs called for 50 amp service. Dig it up and replace the NEW wires.

My point is, they sell a dream, then swindle out some back deals on how they can scam more money off the top.

If they public hasn't had enough evidence thrown in their faces by now, what more can a person say. Sewage.

If your aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

The solution IS financial responsibility. Not pipe dreams.

Severe austerity is our future if this current mentality of spend at all costs isn't reversed. And soon. There is interest on all this borrowed money.

The parasites WILL kill the host.
10/27/2012 4:13:10 PM
canrebel53 says:
Let's solve it the easy way, all the people that want it can pay for it, why should people that will never use it nor go into it have to pay. I don't mind my taxes going towards something that this city needs, but to flip out 150 to 200 hundred mill, for a select few I don't think so, enough money's being wasted for the select few.
10/27/2012 2:57:28 PM
fastball says:
To which "select few" are you referring? Are the construction workers who will build this a "select few"? Are the people who work in the hospitality industry a "select few"?
Or is there some other elite group of people out there that would only receive benefit?







10/27/2012 5:38:07 PM
fastball says:
Here's a news flash for people.
This town has always had a resource-based economy. That kind of economy is slowly dying. The paper mill jobs have been cut dramatically. There's very little lumber being produced, the shipyards have been gone for decades and the grain elevators are being slowly axed. The resources are being exhausted, and a lot of stuff is cheaper elsewhere - it's a global economy now.
The vaunted Ring of Fire - at this point, that's still just a projection.
This city needs to do EVERYTHING possible to bring money into this community. To do nothing, is to fall further behind.
Look at just some of the economic benefits a facility could bring to the city...provided it's marketed and run correctly in today's day and age.

That's just potential sports dollars...now add concerts, shows, conferences, trade shows, and exhibitions.
Like the old saying - you sometimes gotta spend money to make money
10/27/2012 5:50:47 PM
eastender says:
We fell, or I should say some of us fell for the bull they fed us about the 'Charity Casino'. Remember the bus loads of suckers that would be lined up all the way to the border, slobbering over themselves just to put their money in our slots, welllll, it didn't quite happen that way, cuzz the poor suckers are mostly local denizens spending their childrens inheritance, or perhaps their rent money, grocery money, mortgage money, there are many sad stories. But at least they have a parking lot, or two. Do you really think that the multiplex will bring cash into this city? Well, have I got a deal for you, the Jacknife bridge is for sale and for a small down payment...................
10/28/2012 12:55:14 AM
mercy mercy me says:
from watching cop shows on tv, the cop has to tell the prostitute he is a police officer otherwise it's entrapment....fastball, are you a city councilor or the city manager? or just a wannabe?
10/28/2012 6:01:00 AM
fastball says:
Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy who thinks that if reasonable, intelligent, forward -thinking people DON'T say anything - then the opposite kind of people get to say anything they want...regardless if it's accurate or realistic. So, no political or business axe to grind for me...sorry to burst your bubble.
While you're not entirely wrong about the Casino - I think the whole project was fast-tracked and funded by the Provincial government because OLC is a cash cow for them. The City gets what...2 percent of the slots? A pittance. The provincial government saw the stream of people going to Grand Portage, and thought they'd get in on the gravy train.
10/29/2012 11:06:33 AM
canrebel53 says:
fastball, maybe just for your information the select few are the same ones that ran around whining that we just had to have the water front.

Now there's another wasted pile of money, just tell me how many people are going to run to Thunder Bay to look at it. Is this how you plan your vacation, pack up the kids dears I here they built a new water front in Marathon and every body has to see it.

The water fronts no different then all the junk Art that this City bought and stuck all over the place, do we really need it, maybe people like you think we do I sure as hell don't.

Let's be real about this, this so called Council is trying to keep themselves happy on our tax dollar, and it's tax dollars a lot of us can't afford, let's do it right and put it to a vote.
10/28/2012 10:21:46 AM
fastball says:
Here's another concept....the Marina gives tourists and visitors a place to come and walk around when they're in town for whatever reason. THis town should and could be more than a pit stop for a pee break and a gas stop.
As far as local residents - I suppose you didn't see all the kids and their parents using in the splash pad this summer? Or the rink in the winter. Hundreds of people.
Movie nights? Summer in the Park? You missed ALL of these things? Have you actually been down there?
Seems like there were a lot of "select" people enjoying the Marina this summer.
Hey, I'm not absolutely nuts about the giant steel pillars either...but hey, live and let live. I'm not calling for a vote just because I'm not entirely nuts about something. I don't get to demand where my tax dollars go. I let the city administration guys tell me what they can afford and what they can't afford.
The great thing about a closed mind is you never have to worry about anything changing it, right?
10/29/2012 4:20:53 PM
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