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2012-10-30 at 01:49

Council gets peek at how 2012 budget is shaping up

Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
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Trevor Giertuga says council threw city manager Tim Commisso under the bus when they changed their minds to keep Municipal Golf Course and the Centennial Botanical Conservatory open.

The McIntyre councillor voiced his frustrations about recent decisions made by council at Monday night’s meeting. Administration had requested city council adopted in principle a multiyear budget preparation target for the city’s tax supported budget for the fiscal years of 2013 through 2015.

Council had directed administration to find a way to reduce and cut services through the Core Business Review. Administration hoped to find savings of $500,000.

But Giertuga argued it’s difficult to give administration direction when council continues to change its mind on issues such as the closing Municipal and the conservatory.

“I’ve been really frustrated,” Giertuga said. “We tasked the city manager in finding efficiencies in our city budget. When he found some savings, we threw him under the bus. It makes him look badly. We have to decide if we want to find efficiencies in services or we just going through the motions. I’m getting frustrated and I’m sure administration is getting frustrated too.”

Council has repeatedly been given opportunities to make simple decisions in order to save money but instead chose not to, he said.
Council ultimately voted in favour of administration continuing with the Core Business Review.

At-Large Coun. Iain Angus said it wasn’t about throwing Commisso under the bus. In the report given to council, Angus pointed out that there were other saving options besides the closure of the golf course and conservatory.

“The reality colleagues is just like the budget, administration comes forward with their proposals for where dollars have to be spent or in this case where there are opportunities to save money,” Angus said. “The end of the line is here at this table. We make those decisions on behalf of the citizens.”

Commisso said the city is currently doing a number of initiatives in order to find savings including the City Lean and the Core Business Review.

This year there will be change in assessments and that will make it difficult to find out how the average person will be affected by those changes in terms of taxes, he said.

“Homes have gone up in value over the last four years and there will be a shifting between residential neighbourhoods and between classes,” Commisso said. “Even if we come out with an average or a number it’s only going to be that. Numbers based on the average impact we’re at about a little less than two per cent.”

The latest variance report was also presented. The total overages sit at nearly $1.7-million but that is offset by roughly $850,000 in savings that have been found in other departments. The report does not include any costs related to the flood disaster.

 

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Comments

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Sandwiches1123 says:
I'm not sure who you were talking about in the first two paragraphs of this story but Giertuga is the Councillor for McIntyre not Westfort.
10/30/2012 2:08:50 AM
Tom Sanderson says:
Unless the editor has made corrections to the story since your post you should have read the story...twice. The word Westfort doesn't exist in the first two paragraphs.
10/30/2012 9:30:53 AM
Sandwiches1123 says:
I don't think this is throwing someone under the bus. This overused and misunderstood statement places someone as a scapegoat for undesireable results. Tim Commisso was not a scapegoat. Yes, Giertuga is correct by stating that Council asked the City Manager to find inefficiencies. Throwing Commisso under the bus would suggest that he was the one who pushed for Municipal Golf Course and the Conservatory to remain open and then Council blamed him when the budget information came back with an inflated deficit. In reality, this is how municipal government should work in a democracy: Administrators make recommendations based on research, the elected officials take those recommendations into account and make a decision. Council decided to support the cause of the people in favour of keeping the respective facilities open. There is nothing wrong with that, in and of itself. It may not be the best fiscal decision but how is any large public works project a good fiscal decision at this point?
10/30/2012 2:17:23 AM
mercy mercy me says:
Oh Trevor, i think the hair dye has finally taken it's toll on your brain, listen to what Ian Anguish says“The end of the line is here at this table. We make those decisions on behalf of the citizens.” Commisso works for us through you, not the other way around....maybe you should take a break, relieve that frustration by counting cars on Dawson Rd.
10/30/2012 2:33:15 AM
Sui Generis says:
A family is struggling to budget their limited income. The mother says, "We need to find ways to save money." The father says, "Get rid of 2 of the kids." If the mother refuses, she isn't 'throwing him under the bus'. He presented 2 solutions that weren't preferable solutions. That doesn't mean those are the ONLY solutions.

Giertuga is an idiot to think only in black and white. The answers are almost always in the shades of grey.
10/30/2012 3:22:56 AM
Steven says:
A few things to note:

1) Assessments may go up overall, but a large swath of the city could contest their assessments based on potential flooding and impact on their resale values just for being in those zones.

2) Tbaytel WILL REDUCE THEIR PAYMENT TO THE CITY in the next couple of years, possibly by a large chuck. Its as simple as this: They didn't have competition that actually competed against them, and now they do. A basic cell/data plan used to be $80-100, now you can get the same thing for $35-55. Customers will leave as soon as they are able.

So for those people in the city already paying $5000-7000 (yes, there are alot of them!), what happens now that your assessment has gone up by 40-50% and tbaytel is no longer going to be chipping in during the years to come?
10/30/2012 5:30:56 AM
jimmyboy says:
I to a great degree agree with the stance of "Trevor Giertuga"...I get frustrated just watching the antics from week to week...let alone being there in the mix in person.!

Ian Angus once again makes an attempt to downplay it all...which is "A-typical" of him, being that he is the ultimate definition of a true career politician....he plays the game extremely well.

I feel for Tim Commisso and his staff most days...not all...his work load has to be huge on any given day...I cannot imagine going thru the time and expense and jumping through hoops to please city council as he is mandated to do...and then at the end of the day...have his homework read and approved by the mayor and city council....then they take the drastic turn -about's that is so seldom the case...who would not be discouraged with this type of conduct.???

Tim Commisso must have the patience of JOBE.!!
10/30/2012 6:52:39 AM
MonkeyRench says:
Perfectly stated Sir.!
10/30/2012 10:59:23 AM
chezhank says:
The third quarter variance report shows that it is not necessary to shut down neither the conservatory nor municipal to cut costs.
The savings can and were found elsewhere:

"The City Manager’s Corporate Review process is reporting an unfavorable variance of $100,000 as the anticipated net savings resulting from the closure of the greenhouse facilities at the Conservatory was not implemented.

Offsetting these unfavourable variances are favourable variances totaling approximately $842,000 within other City Departments, including Finance and Corporate Services, Development Services and Infrastructure and Operations, mainly related to vacancies and program savings due to the flood event. Within the overall net budget approved by Council, opportunities for in year budget restraint do exist to realize favourable variances to ensure an overall positive financial position at year-end."

All the city manager has to do is continue on the same path!
10/30/2012 7:19:41 AM
Tbaylifer 1 says:
Eliminate 6 councillors. That would save of not only money from their pay but less time at meetings asking stupid questions.
10/30/2012 7:27:16 AM
myopic not foolish says:
Eliminate 6 senior administrators. That would save the city over $600,000/year. In 2002 the city spend over $200 million per year. Now they spend over $400 Million. Obviously, cutting pithy things like municipal and such would matter.
10/30/2012 12:16:01 PM
Meta says:
If anyone knows about double talk and dealing it good ole Iain !

Trevor is right on the money council can't keep things straight. Ask commission to save money then lend over a million dollars nay give it away to a private company.

Time to vote in people who are accountable to the taxpayers
10/30/2012 7:31:00 AM
tudor says:
Here is what I know about the city budget

It is rarely met
It is too large
It contains too many items
Needs to be cut

A short but sweet assessment.
10/30/2012 7:47:29 AM
Tbay99 says:
Sadly the majority of Thunder Bay prefers the tax and spend form of government so cuts will not happen. Be prepared for $10,000+ tax bills within the next 5-10.
10/30/2012 11:27:29 AM
panzerIV says:
Not sure who this comment was directed at "Westfort councillor voiced his frustrations about recent decisions" but if that is about Giertuga then he is the McIntyre Ward rep.

- Not mentioned in the article is that the city expected a 5-7% increase in water bills this year as they work towards a self sustaining water system (province mandated)
- Tax (Levy) increases were 3.7, 3.4 and 3.8% the next 3 years but would likely decrease depending on how much true growth we see in those years.
- True growth was also 1% which is about the same as we have seen the last couple years.

10/30/2012 7:53:32 AM
ozone says:
Good one Angus, try following what you preach.

“The reality colleagues is just like the budget, administration comes forward with their proposals for where dollars have to be spent or in this case where there are opportunities to save money,” Angus said. “The end of the line is here at this table. We make those decisions on behalf of the citizens.”

10/30/2012 8:43:48 AM
CM Punk says:
City Council is taking on too much and the population we have here, there is not enough to support all the undertake.
Its simple mathematics.
My friend has a 3 car attached garage home at 3000 sq ft and pays less taxes then I do.
Because they have more people to get these revenues.
TBay is a small town, always will and always will be. Most are probably on WSIB, ODSP, Welfare or some kind of income so any type of increase hurts them.
Angus, trim your eye brows, I think you will see things more clearer.
I am the WWE champion and I defend my title.
10/30/2012 10:37:21 AM
Doug Meyers says:
This is the beginning of the magic act that will involve much smoke and many mirrors, guaranteed to confuse all of us who pay. Rest assured, when you get your tax bill, it will all be cleared up. We will be paying more and continuing to get less for it, all the while Council will be repeating Administration's chant that, "We have been able to maintain services while holding tax increases to a manageable level." The reality is there for all with open eyes to see. Services have been getting thinner over the years or usage fees have increased. Sewer maintenance and sewage treatment have been taken off the tax roll and funded through a water bill surcharge. Hydrant maintenance has gone from the tax roll to the water bill. Those are two examples I know of; how many others are there? If they really want to save some money, then let's have a reduction in staffing and an increase in efficiencies of city workers. Have you ever really watched a Roads crew? There's a start. Let's do like they have in some communities and have a bidding process for work, putting the city workers up against private firms.
10/30/2012 11:57:35 AM
Hardrawkin says:
I think that Tim was tasked with reducing costs not reducing services.
The idea of lean is to achieve the same at a lower cost.
The notion of trying to reduce taxes over the past decades has lead to the decline in infastructure and maintanence that is evident throughout this city.

What we need is better governance and a bigger bang for our buck.
10/30/2012 1:00:03 PM
grs says:
Dear City of Thunder Bay Council:

Please do your best to not raise taxes. I've recently received my MPAC assessment and for the next four years you are going to get plenty of more money out of me due to my property increasing in value. Should you decide to have a tax increase I will be selling my house for the increased value it apparently has and moving to just outside the city limits. The reality is that would amount to a 5 km move for me and I'll still be able to enjoy the area I live in and like to call home.

Yours truly,

A taxpayer who's back hurts from being bent over for too long...
10/30/2012 1:44:36 PM
conker2012 says:
Dear Whinny Taxpayer,

The grass isn't always greener. Rural roads are not plowed as often as city roads and you will likely have to hire a plow company to clear your longer driveway in winter. Also most rural areas do not always have garbage collection, and you would have to drive your garbage to the dump. Hydro is 2-3X more expensive outside city limits. You will likely live on a dirt road which will reak havoc on your car/truck and you will spend 2-3x more on fuel durring the year. Don't forget not all rural areas have natural gas so you will have to either buy propane, oil or stock a wood fire if you cannot afford geothermal heating. Oh and you may not have water all summer due to a drought. BTW rural taxes are going up since governments and downloading services on the municipalties including your future township. Oh and don't forget if your house catches fire I hope you are prepared to loose everything since most serious rural fires are a complete loss.

Bon Voyage,
10/30/2012 2:37:36 PM
Tim H. says:
The grass isnt always greener, but at least people can cut it if and when they want and dont get gouged for services which is just a nice word for taxes.

You wont have to pay monthly sewer charges for a system that fills your house with human waste. A drilled well doesnt often fail to provide water, and if it does I can just help myself to city pump houses at a minor cost to me, but a large cost to city suckers.

A longer driveway, not a big deal because the city doesnt plow my city street more than 3 times a year at best, and I own a 4x4 because if I didnt, I wouldnt make it to work every time it snows, so thats no big deal.

Lots of great propertys are serviced by chip and seal roads, gravel isnt a big deal in winter, in fact its a bonus. Less traffic lights, so less idling and burning gas too.

No worries about gas, outdoor woodstoves do better and they give you hot water too. All at little effort.

Goodbye city, my house is for sale come Spring. Let some fool buy it.
10/30/2012 5:33:33 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Simcoe, Ontario manages to exist without any City Council. MANY towns down there don't have the level of administrative B.S. that we have to endure here. So what's the big deal with having legions of civil servants?
10/30/2012 9:42:35 PM
grs says:
Second attempt, maybe this one will get printed...

Dear Mr Assumer,

You assume a lot of things. You assume I don't already live on a city maintained dirt road that wreaks havoc on my vehicles and doesn't get plowed too much in the winter. You assume that I don't have a long driveway that I already plow quite well by myself. You also assume that I don't live on well and septic and don't heat with a wood boiler. I will give you the fact that hydro will be more expensive but the issues of fire and garbage are ones that I can keep relatively in my control.

I can also guarantee you that by moving out of the city limits I will not use 2-3 times the amount of gas for my vehicle, since it really only will be a few additional kms to actually get outside of the city limits.

Thank you for your concern though, but the reduction of my taxes by over half means more to me.

Regards,

A taxpayer that certainly does NOT "whinny" like a horse...
10/31/2012 8:39:30 AM
Fluffy says:
I agree. Keep increasing my taxes and I'm going to stop paying the bill while I start building my dream home just outside city limits. The taxes here are ridiculous. This is Thunder Bay, not Beverly Hills.
10/30/2012 2:38:47 PM
Me n My Opinion says:
I just want to clarify this point. An increase in assessment doesn't necessarily mean an increase in taxes. The price of housing in Thunder Bay has been increasing quite substantially over the past couple of years. As a result, pretty much everybody's assessment is going to go up. If yours goes up less than the average assessment increase, your taxes will actually go down (before any inflation factors). If your assessment increase is greater than the average assessment increase, then your taxes will go up as a result.

The city still needs X number of dollars to operate, no matter what the total assessment is. The assessment determines how that cost is distributed, so if the overall assessment for the city goes up, then the amount per dollar of assessment goes down. Assessments just determine who gets what portion of the taxes needed to run the city. It's not a tool they can use to arbitrarily collect more money.
10/31/2012 12:35:57 PM
collie says:
AGAIN I say wages is where to look any other city blue collar workers are NOT on the sunshine list!!! REALLY $100,000 a year when others live on less than a third of that!!! 5 employees on that list would bring in the 500,000 there are other ways to cut the fat but keep the quality!!!
10/30/2012 7:19:39 PM
Steven says:
Amen. Cost of living is a fraction of that in Toronto, yet we pay our employees as if they are forced to live in $750,000 small houses.

If we were actually trying to compensate FAIRLY, many of our city workers that currently earn $60-90K would be cut 30%. This would take into account the tiny housing cost we have up here.

You can buy a nice house here for 200K. In southern ontario, 200K gets you a shoebox over a bowling alley and below another bowling alley next to a landfill site.

Lets face it: all other cuts are window dressing. Cut wages, problem solved, and nobody needs to starve. Just get them down to a more reasonable level.
10/30/2012 9:35:05 PM
Rbosch says:
I guess that what I see and hear are different than some who post on here. Mr. Commisso was asked to look into ways of reducing the overall budgetary affect by and estimated $500k. He attempted to do so by introducing two reductions in service, the Conservatory and Municipal. Both items were voted on and preliminarily approved, but then City Council did an about face on both at the last minute. How would you expect a person to react when the first two attempts at getting to the magic $550k reduction were first approved and then flip-flopped on? Some people do not seem to understand the difference between a Core Revue and the Lean approach. The Core Business Review looks at reviewing what Core Businesses the city should be in, while the Lean initiative looks at reducing costs by doing things in a different manner, to achieve overall savings. The Core Business review comes under the ultimate approval of City Council, while the Lean Initiative comes under the pervue of the Manager.
10/30/2012 8:02:45 PM
Tim H. says:
They all seem to neglect the real places they should be cutting. welfair, needle exchange, business welfair like rejen med etc...
10/30/2012 8:16:58 PM
Urban Guy says:
@ Steven. Do you mean city administration or city union employess? Because I would love to make that kind of money. With overtime some employees may get into the lower range. We are paid considerably less than Toronto also Management is another story, too top heavy and too many meetings wasting time. Water and sewage charges are mandated by the province(remember Walkerton). They must be self-sustaining from city taxes.
10/31/2012 7:22:23 AM
fedhead says:
I agree with you Tim H--

Being a city resident all my life and moving rural, I find that the "myths" of expenses are actually myths
My home in town was smaller and older and my hydro was on average of 10-15% more---taxes were double---water bill---etc, etc
Living rural does have some challenges though-increased gas usage to town, wildlife, more snow or more heat etc---it all boils down to your quality of life, costs balance to city living in the end---If you want privacy, nature, huge gardens and bonfires, distant neighbours move to the country---If you want access to stores within minutes, natural gas, close neighbours etc stay in town---both have draw backs and both have bonuses--I have done the math-not much difference in the end as far as costs go
Myself, I prefer my acreage vs. footage in lot size, I prefer my spring fed wellwater that never fails, I prefer to have wildlife pass through my yard vs "wildpeople" and I like to teach my children in nature instead of technology
10/31/2012 8:43:03 AM
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