Wesway
Allstate Insurance
Brand New You
Framing & Art Center
North Country Cycle and Sports
News
Click here to see more
Subscribe
Community Calendar
Click here for full listings.
Poll
Should city council approve a plan to allow Thunder Bay voters to vote online or by phone in the next municipal election?



Total Votes: 251
View Results Past Polls

Market Research

Do you own your own home?
Who's Modo
User Submitted Photo Gallery
Submit Your Own Photos
2012-11-01 at 13:36

Confusing cost

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
NO FEE! NO FUSS!Finally... Prepaid credit cards with NO transaction fees! Find it at Xtra Cash!Click here for full list of services

THUNDER BAY -- A consultant for the city’s proposed event centre says he understands the multimillion-dollar confusion surrounding the cost of the controversial $106.1-million facility.

A group of opponents of the most recent report, which favored a north core location, say the cost to construct the 5,700-seat facility will be in the $149-million range.

Consultant Ron Bidulka said the cost to build the actual facility will be $106.1 million.

“If you went out tomorrow and said ‘build this building’ you would cut a cheque for $106 million,” Bidulka said. “The $148 million is what’s termed as direct and indirect economic impact of building this building. The direct impact is the $106 million.

"The indirect impact measures the circulation of spending throughout the economy that arises from that $106 million investment. The project doesn't spend the other $38 million - this is the additional benefit the economy gets." 

He gave the example of a steel company who receives an order to provide materials but needs to upgrade its equipment. For every dollar that’s circulated within the economy that investment will create more spending within the economy.

Bidulka said the $106 million goes towards paying for everything in the centre from the scoreboards to the concrete. The additional $48 million is from the economic impact of the additional investment.

“What we’ve said is part of this money gets spent in non-residential construction, part of this money gets spent architectural and engineering services, part of this money gets spent on food and beverage and part of this money gets spent on other elements,” he said.

“We’ve divided this $106 million into those various components, we applied the multipliers that Statics Canada tell us and that’s how we get the additional $40 odd million of the indirect impact.”
Ray Smith, chair of the Concerned Taxpayers Group, disagrees with Bidulka and said the city will be paying $150 million to build the facility.

Smith, who is in favor of the Innova Park location, said the city has an agenda to have the event centre in the north core and the consultants are following suit.

“It wouldn’t surprise me if this was jammed into downtown Port Arthur that we’d be looking at a quarter of a billion dollars,” Smith said.

“I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s where we end up. We all know it’s going to cost more down there.”

Smith said now that the” true cost” of the event centre has been revealed the matter of location should be put to a vote.

He said the consultants have been pushing the price on Innova Park to make it appear as if it is just as expensive as the north core location.

He added that online polls conducted on tbnewswatch.com show a majority of people want Innova Park.

But a look at several past tbnewswatch.com polls show that support for either Innova Park or the north core location is fairly close and the preferred location changes from poll to poll. Below are some of those results:  

  • Oct. 25, 2012: Do you believe placing an Events Centre in the north core, rather than Innova Park, will result in greater economic benefits for the city? Yes, 335; No, 340, Don't know, 23
  • Oct. 22, 2012: Consultants have recommended a downtown waterfront location for the new events centre. Do you support the choice? Yes, 309; No, 278; Don't know, 15
  • March 2012: What option would you support for a new city events centre? Downtown, 172; Innova Park, 216; Airport, 24; Do not build, 117

 

 

Click here to submit a letter to the editor.
iCar

Click here to report a typo or error

Tbnewswatch.com(88)

Comments

We've improved our comment system.
DGN says:
When did Ray Smith become an expert in City Planning and building Event Centres? I love how the basis of his argument hinges on unscientific polls. The City hired experts to give their facts of the situation, which they did. Now Mr. Smith has sour grapes because he doesn't like the location. I for one hope Council sticks with the experts on this one.
11/1/2012 2:11:46 PM
yqt says:
Ray Smith (chair of the Concerned Taxpayers Group) is the ring leader of this circus. I'm still curious who appointed or elected him into this position. And who is he trying to fool? Change your title to "Innova Park Multiplex Chairman", your not tricking anyone with you concern tax pay crap, your just smoke and mirrors pal. Cheap smoke and mirrors.
11/1/2012 2:11:59 PM
RBosch says:
So, Mr. Bidulka gives a clear answer to the cost estimate that is being falsely reported by Mr. Smith and his group and he has the audacity to disagree, going so far as to insinuate that the consultants are lying and deceiving people. Please show me Mr. Smith's qualifications to make such a statement, compared to Mr. Bidulka's who does this for a living. I am growing weary of the constant lies of the Concerned Taxpayers group and I encourage supporters of the Downtown North Core Event Centre location to come out to a pre-meeting rally at the Auditorium, to be held at 6:00 pm on the day of the presentation; then please attend the presentation that will follow. I challenge Mr. Smith and his group to show up and show respect for others' opinons. I also challenge Mr. Smith to speak to FACTS, rather than his inuendos and made up stories when he does his expected diatribe, as in past meetings.
11/1/2012 2:12:54 PM
NDP says:
You go get 'em, Hot Rod!
11/1/2012 2:40:17 PM
eastender says:
would you buy a used car from this man?
Tbnewswatch.com

11/5/2012 12:20:28 AM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
What a bunch of B.S. this entire thing is based on made up projections and double talk...this will cost a minimum of 140m...
11/1/2012 2:20:16 PM
yesthunderbay says:
The full report has been available on the City's website for weeks now. It is also available in hard copy at all public library loctons and City Hall. ALL of the correct information is in there, including the direct and indirect costs as Mr. Bidulka has had to point out. Again. I question whether or not Ray Smith has actually read the report, because what he is saying does not reflect the report at all. www.thunderbay.ca/eventcentre
11/1/2012 2:22:08 PM
conker2012 says:
I wonder what level of professional training and schooling Ray Smith has to make these assessments?

Second how can Tbnewswatch state that the majority of people support innova park? A study of less than 1% of the population is not statistically signifficant. All this pole shows is that ~0.3% of the population shows support and ~0.3% is opposed.

You need to have somebody with intellegence review these articles before they are release to the public.

As a recomendation you should state that Mr. Smith does not have any studies or backup to support his claims. Second you need to state that your pole is not scientific and since people can vote several times, in my mind it holds no value.

If you want actual facts here is a good one. The down town arena proposed for edmonton where construction costs are much higher is estimated at ~$450M dollars, this arena is 4 times the size of the TB Multiplex. A simple estimate based on the edmonton arena would put the TB multiplex at ~$100M.
11/1/2012 2:41:03 PM
mercy mercy me says:
years ago,i think Susan Powter coined the phrase/title "Stop the Insanity"....why not just get on with a plebiscite...build it/not build it?, locate it?
11/1/2012 2:45:35 PM
mercy mercy me says:
again off topic and snide....i changed my mind, shoehorn it in downtown near my house, i can triple my income, between charging for parking/tailgating parties in my front and back yard,scalping tickets and counterfeit event merchandise [tee's, bobbleheads etc.], yeah, bring it on, then the only time i will have to think about expedient progress in the 'Ring of Fire' is when i eat too many chili dogs
11/1/2012 6:13:40 PM
bttnk says:
Ray Smith hasn't a clue what he is talking about and it is becoming more and more obvious by the day. He and others, will not stop the progress Thunder Bay is making because our resolve and common sense wins out every time. I'm really looking forward to this being built in the entertainment district, attending events, and visiting nearby restaurants and pub.
11/1/2012 3:07:00 PM
control says:
106.1 million?? Does this city think they will ever pay this off?? at least all the degenerates will have more places to hang out
11/1/2012 3:09:23 PM
NDP says:
The costs are to be split three ways between the city, province, and feds. The city's portion is $35 million (1/3 of $106 million) and it already has budgeted $25 million. The project won't move forward for another 4-5 years. The City only has to save $2 million a year for the next five years to be able to afford it.
11/1/2012 3:41:10 PM
loring says:
the cost of parts and labour are the same no matter where its built.its the other costs that are subjective and projected.
11/1/2012 3:24:25 PM
Steven says:
Lets face it: It will cost MINIMUM $150M just to build after all the magical surprises that our contractors always seem to pull on us. It will also cost a minimum 2m a year just to upkeep. It will also cost us our community auditorium and likely our symphony, as that building will soon close as it loses a large portion of its events and business to this new facility.

Just some food for thought.

Even better food for thought: Look around Ontario and ask yourself this question:

WHY IS IT THAT TO BUILD THIS FACILITY IN OTHER CITIES WOULD COST $40M, BUT IN THUNDER BAY ITS 105M+ MINIMUM!?

Why? Lots of options, from mafia, to bid fixing, to incompetence, to gouging, but there is only one answer.

THE ANSWER: DON'T BUILD IT.
If we need a hockey rink, build a nice medium sized hockey rink. $20-25m.
11/1/2012 3:39:45 PM
mike_n says:
When will people figure out that building in Innova park will bring about no economic benefit from any sort of spin off business. Downtown PA is logical. It seems to be the new hub of entertainment (restaurants and bars). And most of those business are locally owned. So after the hockey game in Innova park people will drive home instead of walking to a bar or restaurant and making a night out of it and spending money directly into our local economy. Wake up people!!!! And the parking issue? Don't get me started. Walk from one end of a 2000 car parking lot and see how long it takes you to get to your gate. Probably longer than it would to walk around a couple blocks. This town drives me crazy with it's backwards thinking sometimes.
11/1/2012 3:48:53 PM
Tom Sanderson says:
This is a decision council made along time ago and it is going to get built hell or high water wether we like it or not. The reason they don't want a plebiscite is because we the taxpayers know we can't afford it. As soon as they break ground for this disaster I'm out of this welfare town.
11/1/2012 4:28:08 PM
gusto says:
Bye bye! Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
11/2/2012 6:06:04 AM
Tom Sanderson says:
No I won't. When I come to visit friends and family I'll be sure to drop off a case of KD at the food bank for ya.
11/2/2012 9:07:09 PM
Tbaybuddha says:
I don't know about anyone else... But I'm so sick of hearing all the negativity, complaining and bickering about this that I don't care where they put it anymore... All I know is I'm super excited for the events and tourism it will bring to the city and I can't wait to go check it out and have a good time... Thunder Bay needs and has needed this for a very long time, city council needs to stop bending over backwards to try and please all the same people who oppose every new project idea proposed in this city and just put the event centre somewhere!! Get the show on the road, I want to watch some hockey!
11/1/2012 5:16:34 PM
Steven says:
You sound like a teenager talking about a new sports car..... you have already spent all your money and owe a whole bunch more, but you've got mom (the feds) and dad (province) who MAY pony up to help out.

If they do, you'll get that sports car. Sure.... it might cost double in Thunder Bay than in other cities, who knows why..... but you NEED IT, as per your comment.

Might I suggest a few things:
1) You don't NEED it. You want it. Like an entitled teenager.

2) Are you really trying to tell people they should just shut up and buy you this sports car? Because thats what it sounds like.


There is something in this world called REALITY. People on here are concerned because it is starting to dawn on SOME of them that perhaps we shouldn't continue our insane spending practices. Perhaps we should fix our roads. Perhaps we should fix our sewers and other infrastructure. Perhaps we should be worried that Tbaytel will stop their dividend.

But you!? You want the sportscar.
11/1/2012 5:50:31 PM
ringettemom says:
Awesome post, Steven, oh so true.
I'm a lifelong Thunder Bay resident, a homeowner, a taxpayer, and I'm getting really tired of paying taxes for things that aren't working and things the citizens don't have a clear voice about.
I have a husband and we both contribute to the economy, my children are being raised here, one who is hoping to attend post-secondary school here next year, and two sets of aging parents who are going to be looking at long-term care in the next few years. And as a family we are thinking of leaving. I love it here, we all do, but I simply do not want to keep paying for the whims of a very select few that are really far from what the community needs. Necessity first, buy your toys with what you have leftover.
11/2/2012 7:26:53 AM
tbayguy009 says:
I wish politicians could lead by example and be responsible parents like you just wrote.

Spoiling people just makes them feel more and 'entiled'.

In a family we would call kids like that, spoiled brats. The electorate should think of themselves in exactly the same way.

It is becoming harder and harder for people to wake up and deal with reality, when they are spoon fed from craddle to grave.

The problem is, it makes slaves of servitude out of the rest of us. Not for the NEEDS of others, but for their WANTS. (ref the bible on this even)

It is time for some political blowback. We need some real politicians, not more social decay enablers.

Imagine hockey before sewers ... or roads.

Disgusting in these global times.

Now I am going to MAKE a cup of coffee, instead of BUYING a cup of coffee at Timmies. MAKE supper, instead of BUYING takeout.

I could survive without any multiplex. In perpetuity.

But some, bo hoo, NEED this.
11/2/2012 3:26:40 PM
Bottleneck says:
Bye Tom! Don't let the door hit ya in the ass on the way out!
11/1/2012 5:28:05 PM
Chaos says:
Tell Ron Bidulka to provide the city a guarantee. Or if he the true cost turns out to be more than 15% he returns his paycheque from the city.

I still don't understand how building the same building on vacant, serviced land (Innova) costs the same as builing at the waterfront when its building where a bus depot and power station are? How much extra is it to relocate the bus depot and power station and also adding underground parking etc. Common sense is what makes the consultant report stink. Don't need a phd to see the report is flawed (grade 8 will do).
11/1/2012 5:46:43 PM
sky high says:
Well all the FOMP crowd could muster was 50 people when they held their rally. I'm pretty sure that on November 21st at 6 o'clock at the Thunder Bay Community Auditorium there will be many more than 50 cheese-eating Ex-FOMP delegates at the northcore downtowm multiplex rally. IF WE BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME IN DROVES AND CHEER!!!
11/1/2012 5:52:40 PM
damanisback says:
I think the real Question here is - have you seen your M.P.A.C ASScessment this year yur taxes are going up 30% ...still want an arena?
we dont't even no what the law suits are going to cost(For the FLOODS) yet.Ask zietzeff what his bill will be first. Then will talk arenas.Oh and by the way is the waterfront bill in yet?Sewers updated ? see where i'm going with this.
11/1/2012 6:12:48 PM
ring of fire dude says:
Looks like you are one of the few who has it going on . People in this town are brain dead when it comes to this project , they just can't seem to figure out how high their city taxes are going to go up . The city is totally broke now , and after the new tax assessment from M.P.A.C. the City Manager is probably drooling at the mouth to raise our tax bills so he can pay for sewers , roads , consultants , Marina Park and whatever else the Elites in this city want . Watch for the city to take out a debenture on this Event Center much like they did with our portion of the Hospital , only we will be paying for it twice as long . Champagne tastes on a keilbossa budget .
11/1/2012 7:45:11 PM
mika says:
Yes, I've seen my M.P.A.C. assessment and it scares the heck out of me. This council was given, in my opinion "EASY' options for cutting cost, but failed to make those decisions (closing certain city run facilities). It worries me that this council can't even make those decisions... How can they make tough decisions, like looking at the "sacred cows" that are the Fire and Police Departments, not to mention other city departments. Tax payers of this city can no longer afford to pay the salaries paid to many city employees. It would be interesting to see the rate of pay "increases" for all city employees over the last 20 years. Do we really need a division call "Traffic and Street Lighting" with managers and other expenses, when they can be absorbed into Roads? Do we need 190 full time fire fighters, when cities twice our size in the U.S. have volunteer departments, with less than half the number of full time members. WE NEED TO START ASKING TOUGH QUESTIONS, NOW! NOT LATER...
11/2/2012 5:59:22 AM
Me n My Opinion says:
If your assessment has gone up 30% it doesn't mean your taxes are going up that much too. In fact, they could actually go down as a result. If your assessment shows a 30% increase, and the overall assessment of all homes in the city go up 35%, your taxes will actually go down. The assessment is a tool used to calculate the distribution of taxes. The city still needs the same amount of money to operate whether your house is worth 50K or 500K. An increase in your assessment doesn't necessarily mean an increase in your taxes.
11/2/2012 4:09:32 PM
tbayguy009 says:
Great.

Thanks for solving that mystery.

My next tax bill will be a ... mystery still, I think.

Until I get it in the mail.

Figures lie, and liars figure.

My guess though (based on past experience over decades of actual statistics) is that taxes will go up.

Hey buddy, wanna buy some unused natural gas pipeline. It's never been put in the ground. For sale. Cheap, cheap. The pipe is big enough to supply a generating station.
11/2/2012 5:09:55 PM
jimmyboy says:
Okay..like so many consultants before him..Ron Bidulk I believe is just another windbag in a long line of same that the city has paid for their opinion to be all in favor..claiming the proposed facility to be a direct economic impact of $106 million..what type of calculator is this man using.????

What this city and region as required for many years now...and will for many years yet to come is a REAL DEAL FIX to the continuing CRISIS of code GRIDLOCK at the TBDRHSC...oh and lets not forget about the every growing and getting longer waiting lists of those awaiting and requiring long tern care and or assisted living accommodations.....where does this situation fit into our city's PRIORITY LIST...of highly CRUCIAL/IMPORTANT issues that can no longer go UN-addressed.!!!

The time is now.....to apply the brakes on the MULTIPLEX for once and for all v. Wasting all this money and time on consultants....open houses....while totally ignoring the real MUST HAVES that are lacking in the city.!!!
11/1/2012 6:58:06 PM
mercy mercy me says:
as a taxpayer i count on the mayor and council to say "i got your back", but all i'm hearing is "i ride your back"
11/2/2012 12:54:08 AM
hadenough says:
"Where does this situation fit into our city's PRIORITY LIST...of highly CRUCIAL/IMPORTANT issues that can no longer go UN-addressed.!!!"

Easy answer, on the City's priority list, pretty low as it's the responsibility of the province to address health care.

Nice use of capitals though, lends a bit more drama to your posts.
11/4/2012 11:49:26 AM
Whodo says:
Why are our building costs so high here in Thunder Bay?
Mr Boychuk twice referred to Thunder Bay's building costs during his presentation to council. I would be interested in knowing by what percentage we are over paying?
11/1/2012 7:03:32 PM
Pandora says:
I believe that when discussing the cost of building this facility, then the TOTAL cost should be quoted. The Total Cost estimate for the proposed event centre is $148 million.
3 Times the price in Thunder Bay...WE CAN NOT AFFORD THIS PROJECT.
Do not let them tell you any different. Bottom line is the bill for the taxpayer will be and this is just for starters, the preliminary estimate is starting at $148 Million for the north core location.
11/1/2012 7:13:56 PM
Leith Dunick says:
No, the total cost is $106.1 million for the downtown north core. The $148 million that opponents have been bandying about is the direct and indirect economic impact the project would have. The $106.1 million cost, plus $42 million suppliers, contractors, etc. would be spending for materials, etc.

This story was done to clear up misinformation being spread throughout the community about the actual cost to build an event centre. This way people can make up their minds one way or another based on facts, and then contact city councillors or the mayor and explain why they are for or against the project.
11/1/2012 7:33:45 PM
baor says:
Leith, I read your newssite at least twice a day for my local news and find it to be mostly accurate and unbiased.
I do take acception to your claim about your polls showing the prefered location. I have voted three times on three different computers. Hardly makes for an accurate poll.
I give you that you in no way claim them to be scientific or perfect, but to use these "results" in such a contentious issue is a little, well, inaccuate.
11/1/2012 9:24:11 PM
Leith Dunick says:
Well, the polls the opponents of the north core site are using are equally unscientific and no more valid than ours. We just wanted to show a balance, and not cherry pick polls that suit one side or the other. The opposition group conveniently ignored our polls in literature being handed out in front of the LU hockey game last weekend. That's a little misleading. Just like trying to scare the public by using false costs that are inflated by about 40 per cent of the actual cost. There are mixed results in our polls too. Two favour the north core and one Innova. And yes, they are anything but scientific, just a snapshot of those people who cared to vote that particular day. We don't claim otherwise.
11/1/2012 11:46:05 PM
Tim H. says:
Where is your poll where the choices include "no, cannot afford to pursue a multiplex at this time"??

Are you afraid your feelings will get hurt?

you have a responsibility here to report the news as it is. Stop trying to steer the herd in the direction you think is best, all it does is make your organization look bad.

Your painting yourself and your publication into a corner fast.
11/2/2012 1:06:16 PM
john says:
Last bullet of the article - March 2012 "Do not build" choice. Did you vote?
11/2/2012 2:06:42 PM
tsb says:
I want everything for free.
11/1/2012 7:28:01 PM
Whodo says:
even if these 'expert consultants' guaranteed,
personally guaranteed the COSTS and the promised REVENUE we still can not afford it!

The TOTAL waterfront bill for the tax payer is not in yet.This 'mega arena' is and always was Phase 2 of the Waterfront project.

The City has never been able to admitted we pay some of the highest property taxes in the country. Obviously they think we can handle higher taxes, just wait.

11/1/2012 7:39:29 PM
barry medawin says:
I would rather see all this wasted $$$ go into a facility for Aboriginal art. At least that would bring people to the city and some real $$$. This thing will just be a money sink hole.
11/1/2012 7:45:14 PM
BlueJay12 says:
LOL, the caption in this picture should read.."Give me all your money, I just made up a inflated number of $106 million suckers muhaha!" Really though 106 million is ridiculous..there are about 5 cities that have built a 6000 seat arena for about $50 Million...Good Luck!!
11/1/2012 8:10:42 PM
sprintfan says:
I'm curious about why in the report,there is no price noted to move the hydro station,the figure I hear spoken is $6 million,but was told by someone in construction,add 30%. Why is the parkade now 200 spots instead of 500 previously specified? Its shown as being located on the Beer Store site,could the missing 300 spots be lined up for the Shoreline site? What will it cost to purchase that and the building next to it,and the cost for that 300 car parkade? If for 200 it is $6 million,could the 300 spots be $10 million? The total for 500 cars was $16 million. This adds about another $20 million,will this be a surprise at a later date? I guess by asking questions like these,I will be qualifying as a "loon" by the Water St supporters. Thanks I'll wear it well as I do the "naysayer" tag Hobbs has given us. The people will have a vote on the location,it makes more sense to me to ask the people before spending the money. Their support will decide on it being a success or failure.
11/1/2012 8:11:40 PM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
don't know how you can be so sure that the cost will be 106m. when the city is still having secret negotiations on land purchases,no decision on parkade and no definite figures on demolition or remediation. All of these questions need answers. Thisis about far more than just the location...it is just too often that we allow these projects to get pushed through for the benefit of a very few and the rest of the people pay the freight. Other communities have no problem building an affordable arena which also serves as a concert and conference center, but we have people pushing a full event center just to be able to attract 10 concerts and a few conventions a year and seemingly without any concerns for the cost.
11/1/2012 8:19:04 PM
Pandora says:
Mr Dunick
Are there copies of the Feasibility Study Phase 2 at the public library for the public to view?
11/1/2012 9:01:53 PM
Jason says:
Just build it, if we all donate $1000 dollars, it isn't much, I just will make my own coffee in the morning as to going to Tims, and i will drive the speed limit to save the dough on the gas! I am all for it!
11/1/2012 10:12:34 PM
Ed itw says:
will the feds put in 1/3 for a hockey rink?
I thought they said no.

$106mil 5 years down the road when the new construction and accessibility regulations for buildings like this come into effect will be $200 to $250mil

11/1/2012 10:31:47 PM
jb says:
Yes, they said "no" to funding hockey rinks but multi-use event centres will still be considered for funding
11/2/2012 3:35:30 PM
jay-ded says:
I would like to know when the taxpayers in Thunder Bay are going to start questioning their council, and when they are going to realize that the so-called "decision makers" are no more educated than the average individual. We are all privy to the same information, if proper searches are undertaken - an individual with a non-professional degree does not necessarily have the background required to make many of the decisions being made by our governing body; therefore it is OK to question our municipal leaders! I would like to know WHO is going to be utilizing this multiplex? HOW much money is going to be spent on upkeep? HOW much more will be spent on the inflated salaries for the additional positions required within the facility (I have worked in event centres throughout N.AM - there WILL BE additional dead weight)? WHO will be performing at this facility? If TBayers complain about the cost of a Wolves game, who will be able to afford the cost of a show? Big names=big production costs!
11/1/2012 11:37:25 PM
truthseeker says:
exactly jay-ded! how about the gullible and delusional pro supporters who regard this newsite as unbias look at the events calendars for these events centres. You want a stone cold lock prediction-this event centre will only sellout 20 to 30% of events. Here i'll spoon feed the calendars from abbotsford and kingston to the pro supporters.





Boy those events sure reek sellout!
Can at least 1 of the news outlets ,i don't care if its dougallmedia, the cbc, the chronicle journal, at least play devils advocate and run a story why this events centre will be a drain on the taxpayers and be an outright failure and disaster.




'the pro supporters call it negativity, they may call it cockiness but its the truth, the multiplex pro supporters can't handle the truth.' (truthseeker)
11/2/2012 8:09:16 AM
Pandora says:
I just can not understand how these two similar buildings on these two different sites can be so close in costs when the one sites needs are totally different.
In the north core site multiple private properties need to be purchased, demolished, environmental clean ups, parkade's original estimate was 500 spaces,which is closer to the accurate number needed, alone costing $16m, the cost to build the over pass and the hydro substation and bus depot need to be relocated. These are all extra costs for the north site.
How can the building and site costs be so similar?
11/2/2012 1:46:38 AM
itshell says:
Well "jimmiyboy" it takes a windbag to know a windbag
11/2/2012 6:46:38 AM
hockey says:
Has the city and taxpayers not looked at the history of every building in Thunder Bay being built including the hospital was over budget from the already massive original price. I think it is time to make the builders and contractors accountable this time around.
11/2/2012 7:29:04 AM
control says:
It doesnt take much to confuse the people in this city. A laser pointer also works well
11/2/2012 8:54:34 AM
The Boss says:
Busted! What a joke.
11/2/2012 9:06:33 AM
Fluffy says:
There is no money for a new place for people to play hockey. Fix the crap street I live on first.
11/2/2012 9:10:35 AM
tbayboy says:
If you look at any cities building new arenas or "event center" they are building them in the core of the city. Just when you think Thunder Bay is moving in the right direction....the future.... somebody has something to say about it. Why would you build a event center around nothing? At least downtown you have restaurants,bars and hotels. I don't know if any of you have been to St Paul for any events. You can stay in a hotel right across the street and go for a meal before the event right across the street and go for drinks after the event right across the street so why would you build a brand new event center in Thunder Bay in the middle of nowhere. I know every body is worried about parking but we managed around the Gardens for years. There would be 2 parking garages within a few blocks and lots of parking on the streets around and many side streets for access coming and leaving so no major trafic jams. Come on Thunder Bay do this one right.
11/2/2012 9:11:00 AM
tamarack_skytime says:
Other cities use their transit systems to travel to and from events in their downtowns.

That will NEVER happen here.

We can't afford it, period, I don't know why you people in favour of it are so adament that we can!

Puzzles me, truly....
11/2/2012 3:59:29 PM
Just sayin' says:
Pass the cost onto users, simply put lets put Thunderwolves season tickets on sale for $20,000+ or where you can buy a seat license like other arenas. If we can get 2000 or so to sign-up than lets build it. That way those who will use the arena will pay for it. A simple question is if they are willing to pay $300+ a ticket? The city should not be subsidizing other people's entertainment. My solution is lets just build the events centre and attach to the auditorium. Would be great for speaking events within a tradeshow when there is a guest speaker. Another question, would your household pay an upfront cost of $4000 to build and then pay an additional $60/year or more for eternity to have this run because that is the cost to every man/woman/child in our city.
11/2/2012 9:32:04 AM
hey says:
Why is the media constantly reporting Ray Smith's opinion as fact sooooo much. He claims that he speaks for majority in this city, but does he really. Only a plebisite could answer that. I am just so sick of hearing it on the radio, watching it on tv, or reading it in the papers. Now he is trying to confuse the numbers because he can't read a report.I think it is time for the media to start editing out his opinion when reporting on him. But I guess if they did that, he wouldn't have a statement left to report on.
11/2/2012 9:35:24 AM
Curious says:
Has anyone ever know anything being built to be on budget? Our Taj Ma Hospital has been a perfect example.
It really doesn't concern me where the building is, I just hope that a 5,700 seat complex has enough parking. They said they are making 200 or so more parking spots - that still is no where near what the total of parking places needed if they plan on filling the seats. Good luck i think we may have another white elephant to go along with all the others.
11/2/2012 9:38:40 AM
becker says:
Every time this subject comes up, this page explodes with bickering. You are all aware that this is a "Proposed" Multi-Plex right? Don't get your panties in a bunch....But as a side note, regardless of 50 cranky old folks (Concerned Tax Payers aka, friends of this and friends of that)...this project is probably going to happen, and its probably going to happen downtown. Just saying.
11/2/2012 10:20:34 AM
eastender says:
Put this up to a vote via a plebiscite, and lets see how many cranky old folks vote it down. Why is it every time the word plebiscite is mentioned all the brat children start shaking in their boots, just like they saw the boogyman. I think we still live in a democracy, or do we?
11/5/2012 12:03:52 AM
whodo says:
There have been numerous polls on this issue.
From what I have seen they seem to be fairly consistent 60-65% in favour of Innova Park.

It is my opinion that there will be a very few real winners if this goes in the north core. I believe for the larger number of core business it will back fire on them. Who is going to guarantee that someone parked outside of your business is going to do business with you. They will be taking up your customers parking spot.
Like many have asked "Have you tried to get a parking spot on Cumberland on any given Friday or Saturday evening lately".

Mr Boychuk was right when he originally said it would take a 500 car parkade to meet the required shortfall needed in the North core.
That parkade was priced at $16M. So tell me how can these two projects be so similar in price.
I realize a local business man came forward and spoke of his 75 available parking spots, did he say how much he will be charging for them? Yes, a few will make out like bandits.
11/2/2012 10:38:40 AM
conker2012 says:
What about the Golflinks project. That project would have to go along before any multiplex is build in innova park. That project if fully developed would cost close to 30million. Since this area currently does not have the traffic loads that are needed to do this upgrade then let's hold off the suburban development to support urban development which infact reduced our taxes in the long run. Build in the cores to keep taxes lower by not building new infrastructure (roads, sidewalks, sewer and water).

And to all the people that claim no projects meet their budget. That is only true if Tom Jones is involved. The over pass at hodder was underbudget and build 1 year ahead of schedule. The court house is below the initial provicial budget and will be build ahead of schedule. The problem is local contractors who know how to play the system and scam money out of city hall. I wonder why the algoma contractor has not been slapped with LDs for not completing the project on time????
11/2/2012 1:14:13 PM
dwb says:
More proof that the consultants get paid to say what council wants and not the truth. Also all this crap about no economic benefits for Innova Parks are just that. Crap. If you build a multiplex with concerts and events with over 5000 seats and parking then someone will build a hotel to accomodate the convention people who book it, the hockey teams who come for tournaments and the people who come for concerts that are not 60's geezer rock like we have now. If you build a hotel then someone will build a restaurant and a bar to accomodate them. Innova is a win-win situation that will cost less to build no matter what the biased media and incompetant council wants to shove down our throats.
11/2/2012 10:41:56 AM
tannharr says:
But where's the support for our LOCALLY owned businesses? I guarantee you that the hotel and restaurants that you speak of, will all be chains. Let's support the entrepreneurs, as THEY need to be the backbone to Thunder Bay's economy!
11/2/2012 12:44:56 PM
Tim H. says:
I support the local businesses of which and when I want to. I dont want an automatic business welfare charge appearing on my tax bill.

What have those businesses done for me? Do they give me free stuff when I cry that I want them? Entrpenuers get support by providing a service or a product someone wants or needs, they make there owen money, i dont hand it over.

no more buseness welfare!!
11/2/2012 2:43:24 PM
stuck? says:
With all of the hoopla about there being no businesses or restaurants in the Innova area... are we forgetting that people can build there? They don't need to have preexistence....

Much like how we are going to build the event center? Isn't that how things grow?

Wouldn't building an event center be some what of an enticement for businesses to build around?
11/2/2012 12:23:54 PM
jb says:
Considering our population, the last thing this city needs is more sprawl. Spreading Thunder Bay out even more has no positive effect whatsoever and does nothing for growth except encourage/force more driving while creating even more transportation infrastructure that needs to be maintained.
11/2/2012 3:52:03 PM
commonsense says:
As suggested by "truthseeker", I did check the even calendar for Abbotsford's arena. Other than hockey, there is only "1" event for December and 5 for november. That is not self-sustaining. Anyone can research the Abbotsford arena (google Abbotsford Arena subsidy) and find out what we're in for. This consultant was involved there also, interestingly.
My feeling is we need to know first-
-does the Gardens NEED replacing
-can we afford this project right now
The Phase 2 Report gives no info on the 1st point.
Considering the millions the consultants will make off this, THEY WANT us to replace the FWG.
There is a conflict of interest here.
I would say, when the time is right, somewhere close to one of the cores is the best location.The preferred location is too crowded.
BUT, right now, we have a huge debt, huge costs to repair infrastructure and roads, as well as millions in flood-related repairs.
And, it sounds like Gardens won't be shut down, so we will continue to subsidize it as well.
11/2/2012 12:26:30 PM
gusto says:
Answers to your questions that were already asked a million times
-Yes, the Gardens NEEDS replacing. It is old and past it's best before date.
-We can afford it now. The same as we can afford it in 5, 10, 15 or 20 years in the future when the gardens becomes unsafe for use. This has to be built and it might as well be now. Innova park is a ghost town. Build it in the entertainment district where it belongs so we can all benefit. Ray Smith and his sad little group of cronies need to get on with their lives and stop trying to discuss topics they obviously have no understanding of.
11/2/2012 2:05:26 PM
bttnk says:
Really you have two fundamentally different ways of thinking. First, those of us who want to see Thunder Bay continue to grow and attract new families and businesses to the city and provide our city with economic sustainability. Then there are those who do not want change, or growth (never have, never will), because it may mean they have to drive 10 minutes across town and then walk a few blocks to a hockey game, or it may mean a little extra traffic. It is pretty clear which direction but our local government and our provincial government are taking us, it is high time the naysayers enjoy it, not fight it.
11/2/2012 12:48:23 PM
tbayguy009 says:
No ... the two fundamentally different ways of thinking are:

1) Those that think tax money should be used for EVERYONE's benefit.

2) Those who think special interest groups should be exempted from #1.

Politicians get pushed by group 2, because group 1 is not requesting special priveleges. Or is too busy with life, to fight over ONE topic, day and night, night and day.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease. Business people squeek and they are never happy.

Capitalism on credit, has a limit.

It's time to cut up those government charge cards.
11/2/2012 5:31:40 PM
hockey says:
Did the consultants tell the city to place money in the bank because in 20 years it will need a 20 million dollar roof, a 12 million dollar state of the art heating and ice system to keep up with energy and the eco-times. Add another 1 million for building structure and parkade repair! PS Don't forget in the construction budget that there might be something underneath the existing land that might be hard to extract like old railway and hard rock or dumped old 1880 building material. This is a continous trend and I may believe this will be a 200 million dollar project when it is complete!
11/2/2012 12:56:57 PM
Jon Powers says:
Leith Dunick:

Speaking of "Polls";

Why not a Plebiscite to see if the people want their taxes wasted in this manner?

After all its the only "Poll" that really matters!

See you at the "Open House".


Great Story!
tbnewswatch.com
11/2/2012 2:17:16 PM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
It is strange to hear that if you want answers and don't simply accept what the so called experts (who are paid to provide this information)say. That you " do not want change or growth" Well I for one didn't vote for this council to spend whatever they want or whatever they decide is OK...this city will never grow by putting the cart in front of the horse...we need to get our fiscal house in order and improve our infrastructure first...we can't allow those who simply don't care about money issues to rule the day, without raising these issues...
11/2/2012 2:35:00 PM
Whodo says:
we have a 190 full time firefighters?
11/2/2012 6:57:09 PM
commonsense says:
As suggested by "truthseeker", I did check the even calendar for Abbotsford's arena. Other than hockey, there is only "1" event for December and 5 for november. That is not self-sustaining. Anyone can research the Abbotsford arena (google Abbotsford Arena subsidy) and find out what we're in for. This consultant was involved there also, interestingly.
My feeling is we need to know first-
-does the Gardens NEED replacing
-can we afford this project right now
The Phase 2 Report gives no info on the 1st point.
Considering the millions the consultants will make off this, THEY WANT us to replace the FWG.
There is a conflict of interest here.
I would say, when the time is right, somewhere close to one of the cores is the best location.The preferred location is too crowded.
BUT, right now, we have a huge debt, huge costs to repair infrastructure and roads, as well as millions in flood-related repairs.
And, it sounds like Gardens won't be shut down, so we will continue to subsidize it as well.
11/2/2012 11:35:01 PM
stopthehandouts says:
has anyone looked into possible sponsorship to offset some of the cost? "Bombardier Place or Center" sounds like a good name to me! Theres all sorts of major public companies who invest in communities they operate in. Get looking for some private dollars..take some of the weight off the taxpayer.
11/3/2012 2:04:12 AM
Tim H. says:
Bombardier is already on the government dole, they cant just throw money around.

When a city is prosperouas it has businesses that in turn give back to the community through sponsorships for hockey or little league teams, or even large scale things like youre talking about.

The problem is this city is not prosperous, its biggest employers are government dollar sucking organizations, so they have no money to give of there own.

which is why we cant afford this multiplex on our own. This city is dependeant on government welfare dollars which is just a trap that keeps it depending on welfare dollars.

its a disgrace and people who want a government funded multiplex are a disgrace to themselves, this city and this country.!!
11/3/2012 2:06:36 PM
jimmyboy says:
my reply to "Tom Sanderson"...I'll hold you too your promise.!

And a quick reply to the post made by "hey"...I for one am more than please to see the media reporting on individuals and their thoughts...however I do not agree with Mr. Ray Smith and his group's take on this subject...they as do you and I have a right to voice our opinions...there cannot ever be enough of this when it comes to this proposed facility in my opinion.
11/3/2012 8:01:50 AM
Tom Sanderson says:
No problem Jimmyboy. Tell your Yankee friend Billybob he can buy my house.
11/4/2012 9:53:18 AM
jimmyboy says:
my reply to poster "itshell"....looks like I have another person who likes to troll my comments...obviously you are not a numbers person...I am however as well one who firmly believes there are is ever growing list of much higher priority items that need big $$$$ to properly address them accordingly...oh and if the future will you make an attempt to actually comment on the story itself vs. what it is I may post.
11/3/2012 9:34:08 AM
homelessteen says:
I can't wait until my house is finished being built and I am only forced to pay property tax on my business in this city. Time to sell.
11/3/2012 9:07:10 PM
Comments for this story are semi-moderated. Read our comment guideline.

Add a new comment.
You must log in to add comments.
Create a new account
Forgot password?
Log In
 
 
© 2013 Dougall Media.