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2012-12-03 at 19:30

Finding a fix

By Leith Dunick,
St. Joseph FoundationGrand A Day Draw tickets are now on sale. $1,000 daily draws in November. Grand Prize draw is for $10,000. License #M738339Click Here

A local weather specialist says Environment Canada failed to send out rainfall warnings until after most of the heaviest rains had fallen on May 28, flooding the city’s Atlantic Avenue Water Pollution Control Plant and much of the city.

However, the engineering consultant hired to investigate the flooding of the plant said even if a warning had come out there was little plant workers could have done to prevent the damage.

“In this case there really wasn’t any warning to do anything on. And to be very honest, if there was one there was nothing they could have done at the plant to have stopped it anyway,” CIMA’s Troy Briggs said, adding the plant failed due to overhelmed hydraulic equipment.

With water flows entering the plant at a rate 30 per cent above peak capacity, the plant was simply couldn't handle it.

“There wasn’t any equipment they could have brought on. There really weren’t any more tools available to them to address this event, due to the flows that we saw.”

Briggs is recommending the city implement a “quick and dirty fix” and temporarily remove one of four filtration screens to allow a faster flow of water. A long-term fix includes the creation of an emergency bypass that would divert water and increase screen-cleaning rates to prevent clogging and the slowdown of water flow.

Total cost would be in the $1.45-million range and could take up to 15 months to complete.

The Atlantic Avenue facility was designed to handle a maximum of 766 megalitres of water a day, averaging about 75. At the peak of the storm water flow was well over 1,100 megalitres, or 1.1 billion litres.

“Basically the flows were higher than the plant could handle,” Briggs told a media briefing prior to Monday night’s Committee of the Whole meeting at city hall.

While preventative measures like these are in place at more recently-built facilities in other communities, Briggs said it’s not uncommon for older plants, like Thunder Bay’s 1970s-era system to be without.

“It’s really just the past 10 years we’re starting to see it put into more facilities as standard practice, I would guess. And it’s because plants have experienced these problems and that’s why they’re doing it.”

With a capacity rate 10 times higher than the average expectancy, Briggs added the Thunder Bay plant is more equipped to handle heavy precipitation events than most other cities in Ontario.

“It’s significantly higher than I would see in other plants,” he said. “That 10:1 peak flow to average flow is well beyond what you would see. It’s designed for peak flow much greater than I would see at any other plant of this size,” he said. “And yet we experienced flows beyond that flow during this event. Most plants I would typically see a 4:1 peak factor.”

All told, 91.3 milliletres of rain fell in a 24-hour span, adding to more than 66 millilitres combined that fell in the preceding five days. The additional rainfall separated the 2012 storm from other big storms, including a 1977 deluge that dropped 131 millilitres on the city, nearly wiping out Fort William Historical Park.

“What was unusual about this storm was that it stalled over Thunder Bay,” climatogolist Graham Saunders told council.

“For whatever reasons the stalled over Thunder Bay, so we had at least two hours of very intense rainfall,” said climatologist Graham Saunders, adding the timing was a bit of bad luck.

“Realistically it should have been caught earlier than it was,” he said, adding it might have been prudent for Environment Canada to release a weather warning sooner, noting at that time of day the storm began, not many would have seen it.

Briggs said his findings show the first alarm at the treatment plant, run by automation at night, went out at 1:09 a.m. on May 28, a little more than an hour after the rain began. The first responder was on scene within 24 minutes. Eleven minutes later, at 1:44 a.m. the first alarm in the tunnels in the screen and grip building sounded. By 2:35 a.m. the pump station dry well had flooded and by 3:44 a.m. all pumps at the station were under water and not functioning.

City officials say Briggs’s recommendations, which council received as a first report on Monday night, pertain only to the sewage treatment plant, and not the entire sewer system, which would still have been overwhelmed even if the preventative measures were in place at the treatment plant.

Reports on the entire sewer system are expected before council next year.


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hopper says:
Too bad pure rainwater was washing into waste sewers. Too bad no one thought it was important to fix that little detail before a catastrophe happened.
12/3/2012 8:30:44 PM
mikevirtanen1961 says:
The City has been spending $1 million a year on separating the storm and septic sewers. The fix is in progress, but to fix it faster costs money.
12/4/2012 12:06:17 AM
Sui Generis says:
Probably not as much money as the flood is costing them, however.
12/4/2012 2:29:13 AM
Tundrabay says:
Too bad you can't prevent natural disaster huh?
12/4/2012 8:49:47 AM
pylon says:
This is why I never get consultants. They take your watch, and read it for you. Thanks guys!
12/3/2012 8:31:50 PM
sky high says:
And there we have it...there is nothing the City of Thunder Bay could have done short of upgrading the sewage system in advance, but everyone knows that citizens in this city don't want to spend a dime on anything new. So you can't have it both ways! Let me ask you this....should we build a new multiplex with an arena before or after the Fort William Gardens' roof caves in and kills hundreds of people?
12/3/2012 8:33:29 PM
jessicaray says:
This is an ignorant statement, as there is no feasible reason the city should not have had an emergency diversion available upstream in the system. No feasible reason.

And stop comparing two different things, the FWG is not in danger of collapsing for god sake.
12/4/2012 2:53:41 PM
sky high says:
Your statement shows how naive you are. "The Fort William Gardens is not in danger of collapsing for gods sake." How do you know? Did you think your sewer would back up? The Thunder Bay plant was old, but on par with plants of the same size. Fort William Gardens is old and rickety-if it collapsed on people you loved would you still be saying that? Once again, for all of you who refuse to acknowledge reality....the City of Thunder Bay has been deemed to be not responsible by professional consultants and engineers. The sewers would have backed up regardless of how old our system was. Why can't you people retain important information!! So frusterating!
12/4/2012 5:32:19 PM
funnywalksfan says:
I think you ignored her more important statement, why didn't a city this size have a safety measure in place upstream to relieve pressure, or make sure that the screens were clean at least? It was really rainy all that weekend, I'm a student living near the PA Pros and I know that pumping station was pretty much overflowing that Sunday before the flood. took my dogs to the park beside the ditch on High Street there and it was filled to the max. Was asked to submit my pics of it to some profs.
What "feasible" reason is right!
12/4/2012 10:42:36 PM
jessicaray says:
Many studies done on the Gardens, and the roof is built to fantastic standards because of acoustic variation inside the building. I'm in there 3-4 times per week as a skating coach, so if it's falling on anyone it's probably me, and I'm not scared. I know the people who take care of the place. Now, as I understand it by the exact same token of being close wth certain employees in the know, the City of TBay has been chastised legally before this spring's floods for exactly the same problems: rainwater inundating the sewage system. The City knew it was an issue and did nothing, not even ensure their OWN prevention outlets (the proverbial backflow valve you go on about) in their own system. This certainly could have been prevented and they knew it from day one. Call me naive and call anyone on here any of the names you have been. I wasn't flooded myself and frankly find it disturbing you seem to blame the flood victims. If you have nothing nice to say or helpful to offer, go take a nap.
12/4/2012 11:11:59 PM
Chaos says:
One thing I must say this recent council and admin is great at is finding "consultants" who say what they want them to say.....most recently Boychuk and crew, conservatory, and now CIMA....I am sure if the City paid for the the flood victims "consultant", or a consultant for the anti-multiplex at waterfront they would say opposite. Goes to show you can pay anyone to say anything...credentials and all.

Oh yeah: "weather expert" = oxy moron. Thanks for the laugh.
Maybe the
12/3/2012 8:38:49 PM
raen_rfm says:
I love this kind of comment because you and I both know that if they didn't hire a consultant you would be on here saying things like "the fox is watching the hen house" or something equally stupid because all you can do like many people in this town is complain about anything and everything because your life is full of bitterness. If you hate what's going on there, run for office and see how many comments you get on here about how crappy a job you are doing.
12/4/2012 8:56:17 AM
MD says:
I always find that the best way to get accurate news and reports is to ignore facts and discredit anything I hear from professionals or consultants, and then supplement my own opinion as the facts. Next I stop taking my Risperdal so my delusions about government conspiracy strengthen. And before you know it, I have the answers to anything and everything.
12/4/2012 9:40:53 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Built to fail.
12/3/2012 9:35:45 PM
raen_rfm says:
Let's hear how you would design the plant.
12/4/2012 9:16:14 AM
RBosch says:
After watching the two presentatons tonight, it is quite obvious that the design of our sewage treatment plant is a sound one and normally far exceeds the standard that most other plants exhibit. Our capacity handling level is 10:1, while the norm is 4:1. The rainfall amount in the timeframe given are what caused the failure and has nothing to do with design or anything else that could be controlled by human intervention. I can only wonder what affect this will have on the potential lawsuits. It is nice to know that improvements can be made though, that would make the plant even better than it currently is and it is well worth the $`1.45M dollars, projected to do so.
12/3/2012 9:43:03 PM
barry medawin says:
These band-aid fixes are absolutely ludicrous! Why spend that kind of money when all they really need is to lift the plant to higher ground. A few cranes and some careful placement of a brick subwall, and problem solved! It doesn't take a genious to see that the building is just too low!!!
12/3/2012 11:41:10 PM
Tiredofit says:
You should run for office Barry, yur pretty smarts
12/4/2012 7:05:38 AM
DougMyers says:

Please tell me that was a joke. You realize liquid flows downhill not uphill right? This is way a plant like this is built at the low point of a city. Had it been built on higher ground it would have to be pumped up to the plant and then would create a "head" of pressure that would have bleed off into more basements.

Way too many arm chair quarter backs here.
12/4/2012 8:26:34 AM
Tiredofit says:
Well duh...
12/4/2012 1:54:57 PM
basher says:
Great idea, and then we can get that anti-gravity machine in the next municipal budget so we can pump the water uphill to be treated...there is a reason a water treatment plant is in a low lying area. We are talking about peak flows here, not the fact that the plant is at the low point on the system. It has to be at the low point in order for the water to get there.
12/4/2012 8:39:36 AM
becker says:
Wow, you must have failed engineering. Just that easy right? Wow, everyone on here is dumber now for reading your post.
12/4/2012 8:44:44 AM
conker2012 says:
Well it also doesn't take a genius to see you have no idea what you are talking about. I'm a mech engineer and i can see you are full of it.

The plant needs to be the lowest point since water travels down hill for far less money then pumping it up to a treatment plant.

Sanitary sewer systems are gravity feed, and have expensive lift stations when the pipes get too far below grade. To keep the costs feasible these plants are put as low as possible.

You have simply no idea of how these systems run but you troll away like you should be the one incharge.

These are not bandaid fixes either, they are upgrades that can be used to prevent such a disaster for flooding the plant in the future. These are typical features that you would see in a brand new facility not our 40 year old plant. Plus the city did not have the money to make these upgrades earlier since they spent a huge chuck upgrading the secondary treatment and energy efficiency of the plant over the last 15 years.
12/4/2012 9:02:58 AM
Tbaylifer 1 says:
Sky High: It has been stated numerous times that the gardens can last many more years. The roof will not cave in. So, no we shouldn't build it because the roof will cave in. If your so addiment on building it, invest your millions. We need to set priorities and the multiplex should be on the bottom of the list at this time. Fire station, central bus depot, road repairs and the list goes on. Moving to a city that has one built maybe a better choice for you. Even with the fix the flooding could happen again.
12/4/2012 6:13:00 AM
jimbob100 says:
Plain and simply>>>>Bye Bye law suit wantabes.
12/4/2012 7:05:39 AM
Urban Guy says:
Wow the armchair engineeers/critics are at it again already. Location of the plant had no effect what so ever on the events that occured. Water runs downhill to it's lowest point. That's why the don't build sewage plants on mountain tops. Anyone want some facts to base judgment on rather than guesses? Go ahead and ask away.
12/4/2012 7:41:22 AM
mazda323 says:
Chaos, grow up. Just because the consultant tells it how it is and not how you want them to see it, doesn't mean they're being paid off by the City.
Didn't your daddy ever tell you it's better to say nothing and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?
MikeVirtanen61 and Skyhigh, you hit the nail squarely on the head.
12/4/2012 8:16:08 AM
honeyboohoo says:
Look at your Water Bill you just received and dig out a water bill from 15 - 20 years ago. We've been paying 10's of millions of dollars for decades for a state of the art sewage treatment plant and what did we get? A consultant telling us that the plant is from the seventies and that it cant handle the third largest rainfall recorded but it could handle the first and the second largest rainfall with only a feww inches of rain water in peoples basements not RAW SEWAGE. WHATS GOING ON?
12/4/2012 8:57:03 AM
raen_rfm says:
In terms of rain/hour this storm was unique, maybe more rain fell in previous storms but not at such a high rate as this one. It's not the total amount of rain, it's the RATE at which it falls that matters to a waste water plant. 50mm/hour in a storm that lasts an hour and a half is a bigger deal than a storm that dumps 200 mm of rain in 24 hours.
12/4/2012 10:32:52 AM
conker2012 says:
It is not the total volume of rain that fell that was the problem. It was the combination of existing water in the system and the rate at which the rain fell on May28th. Most of the rain fell within 4 hours on may 28th not spread over an entire day.

Get a small funnel and jug of water. Slowly pour the water from then jug into the funnel and it will not overflow. Now dump the whole jug in the funnel and water goes everywhere. Take this principle and apply it to the sewer system. On that night we got nearly 1mm or rain every three minutes. Alot of the older houses in this city have their storm water/weeping tile system connected to the sewer system. This drove tones of water into the sew system faster than it could handle. Finally people that live at the same elevation as the STP should of had backflow prevention systems implemented in to their homes. These valves cost ~$200-400 plus labour to install and would have saved them thousands.
12/4/2012 10:44:06 AM
raen_rfm says:
In terms of rain/hour this storm was unique, maybe more rain fell in previous storms but not at such a high rate as this one. It's not the total amount of rain, it's the RATE at which it falls that matters to a waste water plant. 50mm/hour in a storm that lasts an hour and a half is a bigger deal than a storm that dumps 200 mm of rain in 24 hours.
12/4/2012 10:55:35 AM
Tom Sanderson says:
Read it and weep!
The findings didn't come from the coffee shop experts. Now you can file a lawsuit with Mother Nature.
12/4/2012 9:50:05 AM
OldNews says:
You had better check the rainfall for May 1971. 1977 keep's coming up here because the Gov. did not take the Lakehead Regional Conservation's advice on building the Old Fort in a flood plain. And as we all now know the Diversion went through which took much time to approve. Back in 1971 all of Intercity got flooded, but there was few building's than, and we had 2 sewage treatment plant's; one for Port Arthur, and one for Fort William. Fort St. residence's seen some flooding, but the East End was free of what recently happened. It make's sense, that water flow's from the North side of the city will be greater because of the downhill and more pressure. What happen's to the slower moving water in the south side when the 2 meet? Someone goofed on the new design of this state of the art Sewage Treatment plant.
12/4/2012 10:51:29 AM
Tim H. says:
Anyone who thinks this relieves the city of its contractual duties is fooling themselves.

First off, theres alot of untruths being spouted off by the city and these bought and paid for consultants here in this report. Another consultant can be hired to show completely different findings, it just depends who is paying the bill. Consltants are just friends that back you up when you pay them to.

Next up, the problem facing the city isnt so much the plant, but the fact that they have failed to act responsibly to separate their rain water fom the sanitary sewers. Overflows that relieve excess storm sewer water into the Neebing river (at the Ford St walkbridge) also allow excess river levels to flow into those sewers. Everyone remember how high the water was at the Edward st bridge? That level shouldnt have been that high had the floodway been dredged completely. They just did the last 1000 feet last month.

This was not a natural disaster, it was man made, and the city knows it.
12/4/2012 11:37:07 AM
DontCareWhoYouAre says:
okay where are we going to get the money to pay for this, dont you think we should maybe not put all of our money and time into a damn event center and fix our city first?! look at the sewer pipes in northwood, they all have to be replaced, they are 12" when suppose to be 16" (not 100% on the size details) and now they have to fix the water treatment plant, This our mayor and board need to think long and hard and FIX our damn city properly!!!! makes me sick

and why did the city admit at the beginning it was there fault the plant backed up.. one of the pumps werent even running!! and NO ONE WAS THERE TO WATER THE WATER LEVELS! smarten up and do your damn jobs! and learn how to run a damn city!
12/4/2012 11:55:44 AM
WOostermang says:
Ummm... some of us don't live in the swamp end of the city and look forward to the event center! just because you got sold the bill of goods and built on a swamp, dont punish the rest of us in this city.
12/4/2012 3:09:37 PM
Sui Generis says:
Homes affected:
- Intercity area
- East End
- Northwood
- Downtown FW

So, in other words, everywhere but hilltop Port Arthur deserves whatever they got, because they ALL live in a swamp?
12/4/2012 3:29:40 PM
sky high says:
I live in Port Arthur near Hammarskjold, in a muskegy area. So tell me Sui, oh great whiner of the north who expects the skies to rain money on her just because she can whine...when my driveway heaves or my foundation cracks, will you rally the city around me to pay for it? NOOO, you'll be thankful it wasn't your house. If YOU bought in a swampy area and your house flooded (but you could have easily prevented it from flooding) then don't look for handouts from me. I'd like to see your face when the judge says "CASE DISMISSED"
12/4/2012 5:41:00 PM
WOostermang says:
Hey, I didn't say anyone got "what they deserve", but I shouldn't have to foot the bill or give up the event center because I made a better choice as to where to live. Buying a home in the base of a glacier pit is not a good choice!
12/4/2012 6:15:31 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Cause of flooding...high water...sheer genius...but, like who's brainchild was it to put the pumps way down in the basement?
12/4/2012 12:27:27 PM
conker2012 says:
That is how treatment plants are designed. Water flows down hill and since the south side has about 30 of elevation change from HWY 61 to the lake the pipes have to be sloped at a steeper angle that what the natural slope would allow. Usually 1-3% grade for sanitary lines is normal. If the line were hypothecially straight from neebing and gore to the pumps it would have to be over 225' below grade at the plant with a 1% slope . But they have these things called lift stations. These act like stairs that lift the sewage up from low points 25+" below grade back to ~6" below grade where is slowly flows down hill again at 1-3% slope. Once the system gets within a radius of the plant a final lift station is required. Our is ~10m(~33") below grade. The sewage has to be pumped back up to ground level for treatments before it released into the lake at grade.

You don't know what you are talking about this is obvious
12/4/2012 1:59:21 PM
Tim H. says:
Claiming that the "plant did its job" is the release of responsibility for the city in this is completely laughable. Those who claim "read it and weep" are even more laughable.

This is the eqivalent of asking a young boy "who started this forest fire?" and him staring at the ground muttering "It wasn't me".

Dont worry theres plenty of real investigating going on, as there has been since May 28th.

The real investigators havent even began to play their cards yet. The city just put up their small blind.

We're far from the river card on this issue.

So anybody who's "reading and weep"ing already better go back to the nickle keno machines because this is the big boy's table, and we're playing with the large stack.
12/4/2012 12:50:09 PM
raen_rfm says:
Let me guess, you're on the class action suit right?
12/4/2012 1:39:56 PM
Tim H. says:
Everyone who was affected by the city's disregard for its own sewer system and contractual duties will be eligible for the rewards of this lawsuit.

You dont have to be "signed up".

Whether you like it or not, the whole East End and other affected areas are part of the suit.

12/4/2012 2:19:46 PM
NDP says:
Greed is a terrible vice, Tim H.

Especially when facts have come in relieving the city of responsibility. Hope you aren't burdened with legal fees AND the cost of a new furnace.
12/4/2012 3:09:05 PM
Tim H. says:
Greed is a terrible vice. Its what led city councillors and management away from addressing known faults within our own sanitary and storm sewer systems all so they could spend tax dollars on legacy projects.

Nobody likes to spend money on sewers under the ground, theyd rather build pretend utopias using other peoples money since they have none of their own. Alot like the NDP actually. Imagine that?

Anyway, there are no facts that have come in relieving the city of its responsibility here. They have just produced a little smoke and mirrors so their small and simple minded audience can give them a little applause break.

The not so simple minded are much more aware of what they paid for their ticket and whats going on behind the curtain. So you go ahead and fall for the act, but leave reality to those who dont just swallow every bit of garbage that comes from city hall.

By the way I had insurance, but Im seeking restituition for things it doesnt cover, but the lawsuit will.
12/4/2012 4:28:32 PM
conker2012 says:
So basically what you are saying is that we are all eligible to collect on a lawsuit that is being filed which sues us......... We are paying lawyers to take money from the left pocket and put it in our right? That is the most retarded thing i have ever heard... You know what how bout you give me all your saving I will take 30% and the give you back what is left? no? not a good deal?
12/4/2012 4:11:44 PM
Tom Sanderson says:
Read it and weep Timmy, Wayne, Delbert or whatever you wish you name to be today. The report is in and that is the one the city will take to the hearings.
All this city is full of is complainers and scammers. I know all about some of the scammers in the East End who tried to up their claims figuring they had hit the jackpot at the "Big Boys Table". What a joke some people are in this city.
Some people in this city make me sick.
12/4/2012 3:59:41 PM
Tim H. says:
Are you all out of nickels already Tom?

Or are you short on facts too, because so far your arguement lacks any compelling dialogue. Its all hyperbole.

Does the fact that your precious city let us all down make you as sick as my family was when we had our house filled with sewage?

Im also none of those people you mentioned. I am myself. I think those who are always acusing others of being someone else are the most likely culprits to be doing exactly that.

So heres another roll of nickels, perhaps you wont lose this one so fast? Run along and play and let the grown ups speak.
12/4/2012 7:38:26 PM
raen_rfm says:
Answer me this Tim, did your insurance company at any point in the time you have lived there ask you if you had a backflow valve installed?
12/6/2012 9:16:26 AM
localdog says:
Bye-bye lawsuit? Guess again. Acknowledging the plant was over capacity in the 5 days prior to the final big dump of rain and not issuing any warnings to the public might just be viewed as negligence on the city's part. How hard would it have been to get all sources of media in this dinky little town to tell people move their possessions to higher ground because the plant was failing?
12/4/2012 7:26:04 PM
MikeDaddyP says:
Starting a panic like that could lead to a much greater disaster.
12/4/2012 9:33:42 PM
Gopher88 says:
It is very disappointing to here people bashing others for their choice to buy a house. People are being judged unfairly. How many people who live in port Arthur put in claims for the hail damage in April 2011? Are these residents being judged? Everyone should realize that the plant failed and people got raw sewage in their basement. Insurance claims went in and houses are and will get fixed. I experienced it and I do not live in a swamp. We cleaned up the mess and insurance is covering our loss of contents and renovations. It sucks but no one was hurt or died. Everyone should move on and hope that this NEVER happens again.
12/4/2012 7:56:20 PM
RBosch says:
@localdog - what 2 reports did you watch last night or what report did you read? The plant was not running over capacity for 5 days. The 5 days reference was made by the meteorological person, in stating that it had rained for 5 consecutive days, making the ground saturated. When the storm came and stalled over Thunder Bay, which was not normal or expected, that and the rate of precipitation that fell in a very short period of time, caused the flooding and subsequent failure of the pumps.

To the other "experts" - the normal mode of operation is for 4 of the 5 pumps to be running, with the fifth pump on standbye to be changed out with any of the oter 4 pumps, for maintenance. The plant is designed for flows of 700+ million litres of water, while the normal flow is 75. Our plant actually was way over designed and exceeds the provincial norm of a 4:1 ratio. If you can predict a given amount of excessive rainfall in an extremely short period of time you are good and we defer to you
12/4/2012 9:11:31 PM
localdog says:
No, it wasn't that the station was running over capacity FOR five days. It was by the fifth day of consecutive rainfall the station was running over capacity. Then the huge downpour on (day 6?) is what shut it down and the problems really started. I heard this on the local news (radio) just a few days ago. So in anticipation of a possible problem during days 3-4-5 would it have been so hard for the city to issue a warning to residents in that area?
12/4/2012 10:51:10 PM
EmEff says:
This kind of preemptive fear mongering could lead to widespread panic. What if nothing were to happen?? The media is more responsible than this. It would be like pushing a camera into the face of an innocent bystander. Not cool.
12/4/2012 11:29:03 PM
localdog says:
It's a sewage backup, not a nuclear war. Fear mongering? Widespread panic? Yes, the streets of Thunder Bay would be in chaos. So what you're saying is rather than warn people of a potential mishap that would have given them the opportunity to save their beloved possessions, there should be NO warning and everyone should be left to suffer the consequences? Well, that's exactly what the city did, and look what that got them. Not cool.
12/5/2012 10:13:38 AM
moonpie says:
I can verify that this information is 100 percent accurate. Well said!
12/5/2012 9:25:03 AM
canrebel53 says:
conker2012, here's a little news flash for yea, 90% of this City has combination sewer system. There's only a few sections here that have sanitary and storm sewers separate, but here's the other kick, those sewers run into the combination sewers any ways. And as far as your back water valve goes that's only going to stop the sewer water, when the grounds around your area get saturated with water it's going to flood your weeping tile and your going to get wet any ways. And as far as your 1 to 3% grade for your sewers try a 1/4 bubble on your level that's what we used for installing sewer down east, from 3 inch ABS to 4 foot concrete.
12/8/2012 12:05:29 AM
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