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2013-03-14 at 11:35

Two thirds of residents support Big Thunder Wind Park project: Survey

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
Understand exactly what repairs are being doneMINUTE MUFFLER for fair prices & a clear explanation of the work being performed. 677 Memorial Avenue.Click here for details

The majority of local residents support the proposed Big Thunder Wind Park, a new poll suggests.

The survey, conducted by Toronto-based Pollara, polled more than 600 residents last year in December on how they felt about Horizon Wind Inc.’s proposed wind farm. The results, released Thursday by Horizon, showed 62 per cent of residents supported the idea.

The majority of the opposition was found in the Neebing ward, where the wind turbines would be located.

The report concludes that there was a majority of support in the areas surrounding the city.

But those areas weren’t broken down into specifics nor was Fort William First Nation mentioned, which has strongly voiced its opposition to the project.

The sample size included 82 interviews conducted in each of the city’s seven wards.

Horizon spokeswoman Kathleen MacKenzie said she’s pleased with the results of the latest poll and was encouraged to see that the percentage of “strongly opposed” dropped six per cent to 18 per cent from the last poll conducted.

She said it is a sign that residents are seeing Horizon as a good community partner.

“When the wind farm was first proposed, I don’t think people knew who we were,” MacKenzie said during a phone interview with tbnewswatch.com from Toronto.

“In general, I think almost everyone you talk to in Thunder Bay is in favour of renewable energy. When the lawsuit was filed against the city, a lot of people didn’t like that. Unfortunately, it was necessary but all of us wish it wasn’t necessary. That made people anxious when that happened.”

She said the current judicial review with the Ministry of the Environment is something that isn’t a concern with residents.

The controversial project has met major and vocal opposition in the Neebing ward because of the placement of the turbines. The issues ranged from property value to the endangerment of the nesting peregrine falcons, a species still believed to be in recovery.

MacKenzie said Horizon has done everything they can to try and address these issues including moving the turbines further back so that it doesn’t impact the birds or residential areas.

“We’ve tried to educate people on the reasons for the location of the wind park,” she said.

“We’ve distributed maps for example that show the wind strength and why you locate certain turbines where you do.”

Irene Bond, spokeswoman for Nor'Wester Mountain Escarpment Protection Committee, called the new study another publicity stunt by the company. She said they haven’t seen the poll and for the third time, didn’t know what the questions were.

Depending on the phrasing and the order, the questions could lead to any result that the pollster wanted, she said.

“What’s really interesting is, from our straw polling there’s very few people that knew anything about the Nor’Westers and the history,” Bond said.

“As we’ve been educating people, we find less than 10 per cent know what’s being proposed. Once they start to educate themselves, we’ve almost got 100 per cent of our poll saying people are against it as the location. They’re not against any wind or Horizon Wind. They’re against the location.”

Bond pointed out that the poll numbers for the project is also going down. 

She said the first poll had 75 per cent in favour but that has now dropped by 13 per cent in the latest survey.


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Comments

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sky high says:
All this proves is that the majority of people from Thunder Bay were born with common sense. This is a good thing. The Neebing Nimbys are going to have to take a knee on this issue
3/14/2013 11:39:01 AM
vimeo says:
Sky you are so naive. It's a good thing for who? Are you going to benefit from it? Is our electric bills going to drop after the padded subsidies? Are we prepared to foot the multi-million dollar decomissioning bill we'll get in 20 years when they walk away from a zero depreciated park?
There's a lot more to it than the nimbys who complain about.
3/14/2013 12:20:47 PM
sky high says:
Nimbys are the biggest DENIARS on the face of the planet. No one is leaving us with a multi-million dollar decomissioning bill...quit bowing to fear-mongering.
3/14/2013 5:26:20 PM
vimeo says:
Ahh, just like grade school...if you weren't smart enough to engage in an intelligent discussion you revert to name calling. Thanks for coming out.

These turbines are worth millions of dollars. After their 20-25yr lifespan they will be depreciated to zero. They will cost millions to decomission. Horizon is a numbered company that will dissolve when the project is done. They will walk away (as they will have zero value assets with no liabilities) and there will be nothing we can do about it.

It's explained well here:



If you don't believe me take a look at some of the old elevators around here as well as bills we were left with to blow them up. Same deal.
3/15/2013 8:13:23 AM
Ringettemom says:
Agree, wholeheartedly. This rarely is mentioned however.
3/15/2013 10:09:50 AM
sky high says:
Ahhhh, just like a Nimby and a Deniar to question someone's intelligence when their dogmatic ways get the better of them. The decomissioning will be worked into the contract silly....wind turbines are not elevators.
3/15/2013 11:36:31 AM
vimeo says:
Hey Sky...speaking of intelligence...why don't you try a dictionary? It's DENIER. hahaha.

Glad you know the difference between turbines and elevators. In both cases contracts are useless if the company folds up their tent. Who are you going to sue when there's no company left?

fyi, the contracts have long been signed and yes, there is provisioning. It's set at a fraction of the full cost and it's in today's dollars but I'm sure you already researched that.
3/15/2013 12:18:49 PM
sky high says:
Actually there's no correlation between spelling and intelligence, vimeo. Especially when you consider that English is not even my first language. You realize your points are moot so you have to attack spelling? Wow, geez...I won't even tell you that you don't have a clue where to put a comma in a sentence or you might fly right off the handle. And more people agree with my original statement than they do with your silly name-calling, so take that one to the bank vimy old boy! Now quit your whining and enjoy the turbines that will soon be waving at you!
3/15/2013 3:42:59 PM
Neebing1414 says:
omg (oh my god) you are hilarious.. do you even read what you are writing before you click submit? do you even do any research on what is going on or are you that desperate for attention that you like to comment whether you are right or wrong?

seriously act your age and do some research for a change!!
3/15/2013 10:09:35 PM
sky high says:
Do you mean the research that you Nimbys have created because you don't want the turbines in the Neebing area? Like the stuff about Falcons becoming extinct? lol, yes hon I have read all of your documentation and it's cute-but it's time to move on with this project and there's nothing you can do about it. After a few months you'll actually become attached to them and you'll paste images of them on your e-cards. Two thirds are in favour, on we go. Time for Thunder Bay to join the new millenium!
3/16/2013 8:59:34 AM
vimeo says:
Is that the best you can come back with? A language excuse and a popularity refresh click contest...I'm disappointed in you.

The lack of insightful engagement in the discussion speaks volumes of where you're coming from. We all get it. At least you'll be back in school next week.
3/15/2013 6:20:16 PM
sky high says:
Speaks volumes 'ABOUT' not of....lol, I learned that in grade 6. And I see your agrees have pretty well caught up after trailing by a wide margin...lol time for someone to get a hobby there vimby!
3/16/2013 10:52:24 AM
Neebing1414 says:
just because you hit the like button over and over again on your comment does not people like your comment.. you are the one agreeing with yourself.. you know its a nice day out why not go outside and get some fresh air?
3/18/2013 11:22:10 AM
Neebing1414 says:
i agree with you the we are going to have to pay the bill Vimeo, but the time scale of 20-25years is what the wind companies want you to believe.. new research shows that the wind turbines will need to be decomissioned in as little as 12 years.. wind companies want everyone (currently have 62% of Thunder Bay people believing) that there product is good quality and will last long
3/15/2013 10:15:16 PM
vimeo says:
I thought it was 12 too, but thought if I took the wind company's stats it would be a bit more credible in my argument. However, the above school yard bullying shows it doesn't matter what evidence we present.
3/16/2013 1:56:29 PM
TWM says:
I have my doubts about this poll, first, who paid for it? Second, it's easy enough to find a target group and offer an unrealistic poll result.
3/14/2013 2:55:36 PM
Daxxis says:
It's easy to explain away the negative responses to NIMBY, but before I do that I'd like to know the reasons for opposition. Not in general terms, but specifically.
There 'are' negative impacts of wind turbines, but the research I've done shows that the benefits outweigh them as long as aesthetics are ignored. Because who am I to tell someone else what they should find pleasing or not pleasing in their skyscape.
3/14/2013 12:01:25 PM
CanadaLynx says:
Who developed these recent Poll questions? And how were the questions phrased? Research clearly demonstrates that subtle differences in the way questions are worded (framed) can significantly influence the kinds of responses that follow from them. Questions such as "Do you think wind turbines are an important part of Canada's green energy future"? might yield many positive responses. Yet, this would likely have no bearing on whether Thunder Bay citizens wished to endorse having these turbines prominently displayed up on the Norwesters. I'd be surprised if the questions were written in a fair and objective manner and not subtly designed to ellicit favourable responses for Horizon Wind. Let's see the poll questions please.
3/14/2013 12:04:53 PM
shiho says:
Horizon is encouraged that strongly opposed has reduced from 24% to 18% ?

If 1 in 5 people are still strongly opposed that doesnt ssay to me that its a small number of people or just some vocal minority

Of course - the poll was designed and paid for by Horizon - so the results are as good as Horizon could buy

I have never heard anyone tell me thaey support hte project- opinion I have heard ranges from ambivalence to strong opposition

3/14/2013 12:12:31 PM
vimeo says:
One has to ask why they're doing this survey at this point in the program. Do you think if the response was 95% opposed they would do something about it...especially after suing the city a few years ago? I think not.

These surveys are useless. They tell us nothing. The last survey asked light and fluffy questions like "Do you support wind energy"? Well of course people would say so. Even the so called nimbys you label in Neebing.
You can spin a survey any way you want if yo ask the right question. For example, Do you support tax reform? SURE. But ask Do you support tax reform that hikes your tax bracket 25%? I think you'd get a different response.

Let them say what they want. It's out of our hands anyway. It's really up to them to see if they're organized enough to answer to the Province.
3/14/2013 12:15:28 PM
shiho says:
What the Heck is Horizon up to?

If the REA was a popularity contest, then I would understand all the 'media releases' and polls and PR smiles. But the REA is an administrative approvals process with minimum requirements (easily met)- public consultation reqts are essentially newspaper ads and handwaving

The Judicial review court documents clearly show that Horizon is past its deadlines- It was supposed to have its REA completed and approved by Feb 8 2013 in order to prove to the OPA that it could meet the August 2013 inservice date.

Horzon hasnt even had its REA accepted for review, and construction would take at least 6 months - longer if the Peregrine Falcon breeding season/ no heavy construction limitations are factored in (the road/sewer construction on Mountain Road has occured this winter so as to not disturb Peregrines on the Norwesters)


So whats the real story here?
Its not some lame poll results thats for sure
3/14/2013 12:24:28 PM
dynamiter says:
Peregrine Falcons are a non issue both from a factual basis or a protective species basis - it is just another red herring thrown at this project by the NIMBY'S and their supporters
3/14/2013 1:18:07 PM
chezhank says:
This is a simulated photo from Horizon's website...with what phase 1 of Thunder Bay Wind Park will look like,what will the other three phases look like....it was always aesthetics for me...to me,he(she)no look so good!
Tbnewswatch.com

3/14/2013 12:35:01 PM
guy11 says:
why is that? rather see those than pollution from the mill...The pollution would likely block them from that view on many days.
3/14/2013 2:33:02 PM
chezhank says:
"Two wrongs don't make a right!"
3/14/2013 8:24:55 PM
shiho says:
I encourage everyone to ask Horizon, or kathleen MacKenzie personally, for an electronic copy of the JR documents, andd submissions

Or post them on their website- no cost to anyone

The documents reveal some interesting facts such as
Why towers were relocated (some towards homes, some away)
That Hor was invited here by unnamed people in 2005
That Hor had someone unnamed here in Thunder Bay help them with City discussions
That Hor had an agreement with FWFN in 2007 - for support and cooperation based on turbines located south of the ski jump
That Hor has had numerous meetings with MOE and MOE has tried to help them get approval
That the latest project change to remove the second transmission line (phase 2) was part of a deal with Thunder Bay Hydro - and TBH will build that line

One has to wonder what has been going on behind the scenes for the last 9 years - with FWFN, the City, the MOE, OPA, and Thunder Bay Hydro - obviously a lot
3/14/2013 12:36:34 PM
Happycamper says:
I don't oppose this on aesthetic grounds, frankly half of the buildings in our city are an eyesore in my opinion. It's not like the Resolute mill is particularly pleasing either. What I do oppose is the negative environmental impact of the project with limited benefits to our city. Will the power generated there subsidize our power first and then we sell excess to the grid for the benefit of all? No. Do we really need the power generated from this farm? I'm going to say no, we seldom run the OPG generating station, only when the grid demands are too high.

I for one am sick of padding the pockets of Southern Ontario without any real support, or benefits for our residents.
3/14/2013 1:16:24 PM
Happycamper says:
And statistically valid information from a survey that includes 0.5% of the local population??? Poppycock!
3/14/2013 1:18:50 PM
guy11 says:
0.5% sounds suitable to me. that's 1 in 200 people including children.
3/14/2013 2:35:51 PM
twig says:
For the population of Thunder Bay, a sample of 600 people gives a result that is within +/- 4%, 19 times out of 20. Pretty standard for surveys.
3/14/2013 2:59:25 PM
Tim H. says:
Who cares what people who wont be living withing close range of them think?

Of course people in current river dont mind them, they'll never notice them, nor be directly affected by them. If they support them the most effect they will have on them is their increaded electricity bills and more taxes required to fund them. If they arent smart enough to be against them for those reasons alone, then they wont be smart enough to even notice the change in their bills.

wind energy is ok. subsidizing them is not. picking stupid locations like this one is not ok either. there's millions of acres they could be placed and not have the same determental effects as they will here. the only reason for them being there is the incredibly stupid people at city hall got us into this mess hoping to get rich quick and buy votes from green freeks.
3/14/2013 1:41:11 PM
eyeinthesky75 says:
Maybe if you pray hard enough to your sky daddy that will keep the wind turbines away.
3/14/2013 7:09:40 PM
Tim H. says:
Its working thus far.

Who are you asking for guidance in troubled times? You seem to be lost.
3/16/2013 9:26:02 AM
YellowSnow13 says:
I actually took the survey. Some questions were a little one sided but overall it wasn't that bad. I still think surveys can be swayed in any direction you want to spin it.
3/14/2013 1:54:08 PM
vimeo says:
That's exactly my point. Well said. Even a single one sided question is enough to skew the whole survey.

Would you mind sharing with us what the questions were? That's one thing Horizon is afraid to do.
3/14/2013 3:29:48 PM
Dan Fiorito says:
Here's' the view from my front yard, the view Horizon won't show you. This was done using their data and photos of their simulated turbines. It's accurate within I'd say 10ft up and down, left or right.

That's why I'm against this. Reports have confirmed in Sothern Ontario that houses with this actual view shed will loose approximately 40-59% of their resell value. I can post the link to the independent research, however I believe someone else did a while back.

I've had numerous discussion with Kathleen McKenzie and while she admits that there is the potential, it's not up to them, it's up to me to have MPAC review and reassess. What flip'n good does that do if I want to sell?

I don't have a mansion, I have reasonable size house that I built as an investment for my future and now some greedy firm from Toronto will devalue it and says "oh well". Dam rights I'm mad. I'm not about to take a $150k+ loss without a fight, because someone will have to cover it.
Tbnewswatch.com

3/14/2013 2:39:57 PM
Dan Fiorito says:
Here's the independent study link I mentioned.
\
It's an interesting read, even when selling the houses that the wind companies purchased "to shut people up" to the biggest hit at 59%.

No one is questioning the need for alternate sources of power, I feel we need it, but we have 100's of thousands of acres in NWO, why in a residential area? Cheap land, massive profits, plain and simply.

Horizon claims to want to work with residents, yet the first thing out of their mouth is always NO, or we aren't going to, can't do that. They claim they moved turbines back, and they did, but they also moved 5 forward closer to homes.
Call me a NIMBY, I don't really care, I'm just trying to protect what is all of ours, the beautiful Nor'Westers, Horizon doesn't care. They wouldn't have sued use if they did, over 2 turbine locations if they cared. And yes, my property values are important to me, just like you
3/14/2013 3:00:59 PM
octane says:
I guess you better sell your house now..

3/14/2013 3:50:41 PM
octane says:
I guess you better sell your house now..

3/14/2013 3:51:58 PM
hurricanejeck says:
Wind power sucks not blows!
I just returned from Toronto area and saw these TV ads and listened to these radio ads.

We all know the cost of wind power and that it's subsidized with our tax dollars. We all know that wind power is strongest at night when demand is very low. We all know that there is no transmission line to accept or send power at White River. White River is the bottle neck for Northern Ontario's transmission lines.
The cost vs. return on wind is terrible. So stop and ask yourself who gets rich and who pays for this venture. I'm not a NIMBY, I just want to keep more of my paycheck!
3/14/2013 3:06:34 PM
bottleneck says:
Friends of mine visited the Dorion windfarm the other day and were surprised at how much land had to be cleared to install each turbine, in addition to the roads that were built to put them in (note the white patch around each one). They were also surprised by the sheer size of the turbines and noise they made, akin to an airplane flying overhead. One of them also noted the shadow flicker from the blades and commented how annoying that would be in her house. I'm all for green energy, but I really don't think the Nor'westers is the ideal location - we have a lot of land around here that could be used, why is Horizon so hell bent on the Nor'westers?
Tbnewswatch.com

3/14/2013 3:14:40 PM
Det john kimble says:
Ive been up close to turbines in 2 different countries , could hear them close up, 500 metres away barely any noise.
Anyone living on top of the norwesters? nope....
If you dig enough on the internet one can find noise charts on turbine size and noise at a given distance.

Horizon is not so hell bent as they leased the land from the city and have an agreement, a contract.
Wish they'd go away too.. but sorry seems not, they have invested alot of time and money
Unless the MOE in the end refuses to pass horizons permits , its a go.
At this juncture it seems like this is the last small chance.
3/14/2013 7:17:47 PM
passlake says:
one poll says 62% in favour. the other says nearly 100% opposed.

When one person says black and the other person says white, you know the actual answer is grey.

it certainly IS about how you word the question and what information you provide prior to asking the questions.
3/14/2013 3:15:23 PM
ibrando says:
Why shouldn't Horizon get the poll results they seek, they are paying for it. It is no different than the City of Thunder Bay selling property in Innova Park for a new building to a consulting engineering company that is part of the consortium deciding where a proposed events center should be located. The city got the result they "PAID" for. Let's get on with building the wind park.
3/14/2013 3:38:55 PM
BorderDave says:
If you dont like this, TOO BAD..... Wind farms bring in free energy and thats not gonna change for a few miserable people who live in Mount Forest
3/14/2013 3:55:24 PM
random says:
Free energy?? Really? Now that's the answer to all our energy needs!!
Free as in $1.5 million per tower, $1 million to put up= $2.5 mil/tower.
Government paying .65/kwh from these towers, yet selling it to me for .09/kwh. That sounds like a new type of math to me...your "free energy"
If you asked me how I'd like a nuclear reactor built in Toronto, I'd say I'm all for it, as I don't have to see it, live with it...you name it. I could also run a survey, at no cost to anyone, and come up with whatever results you like.
If you want those towers so bad, put em up at the water front...tons of wind there, and apparently, they are nice to look at too!
There is reverse nimby at work here as well.....all those who are for it, are for it because it isn't in their back yard...hypocrites.
3/14/2013 5:40:38 PM
vimeo says:
Have another granola bar and read the facts. Wind energy costs us almost twice the time to produce. The wind may be free, but the delivery is far from it. It's so subsidized it's a joke.

Again, very easy for you to say living far from the area affected. I feel for the folks out there. They didn't ask for it. Why should their lifetime investments suffer because some joker wants to cash in on a government subsidy?
You green folk talk all you want about green energy. The sentiments mean well, but wait until you get the bill.
3/14/2013 6:19:28 PM
combatwombat says:
please tell me a source of power that is NOT subsidized by the government.
Big Oil is , tarsands, coal, nuclear...etc etc shall i go on?
3/16/2013 7:25:45 PM
Winger says:
there is nothing free about it.
3/14/2013 6:57:29 PM
tiredofit says:
I'm sorry? FREE ENGERY?? You obliviously live a sheltered life and don't pay a hydro bill in this province. I suggest you google the cost of wind power in Ontario. Horizon is set to make 880 million on this project (their numbers to Mayor Hobbs, not mine).

That BorderDave is in no way shape or form FREE ENGERY!
3/14/2013 7:37:26 PM
bttnk says:
I live in the Neebing area and will be effected by the wind turbines. Personally, I support the HOrizon project. It won't be long now and this discussion will be ancient history and we will have green energy being produced on the Norwester Mountains.
3/14/2013 4:10:27 PM
mailman says:
Dan Fiorito---- Thanks for being honest and actually saying why you are against it. Perhaps if everyone was just honest, rather than talking about the hawks having their nests destroyed. Or how wind turbines cause lower grades in students. I am in favour of the wind farm BUT only because it won't effect my property value. Should I too live in the norwesters, I'd be just as pissed.
3/14/2013 4:13:17 PM
combatwombat says:
fact ,the city leased the land, made a contract tried to break it ( by telling horizon to move turbines and placate opponents)
fact:in the business world you break a contract you may well get sued!!
fact : the city had no insurance for breach of contract.
fact, feed in tarrifs for wind get the owners of the park rich like owners of any money making project!
fact, the people of ontario across the board will pay for wind power at a high rate.
fact its the whole provice that will pay not just thunder bay.
fact: wind power up here in NWO is a waste.

BUT AGAIN fact, the city is bound by the contract.
So what do we come up with?

Summary, yes: its just not right!
yes: its bad deal yes: contract signed.
END OF STORY.

It will be an eyesore, like many industrial projects. everyday business.
The 1% will be unhappy.
Does that make it right? No.

But this the real world.
3/14/2013 4:14:06 PM
tiredofit says:
FACT: The contract clearly stated the city had final say on the location of the turbines.
FACT: Horizon sued as they claimed the move would be to cost prohibitive for them.

Shall I go on?

Check your FACTS before you post combatwombat
3/15/2013 7:44:56 AM
combatwombat says:
ok i'll bite

fact: the city CAVED when it came to fighting a lawsuit...
why??
do you have facts for why that happened?
3/15/2013 12:15:18 PM
Tiredofit says:
Because they provided Dillion consulting with information they shouldn't have

FACT; a number of residence,myself included will file a lawsuit against the city, and yes I know I'm basically suing myself, but don't care, the idiots at city hall screwed up royally and as once councillor put it, we will simply deal with the lessor of two evils (that was before Horizon sued). Win or lose, I really don't care, a few in administration will have some explains to do.

As Fiorito put it, it's a huge potential personal loss that is a proven fact. Other locals in Ontario are being sued, and all it takes is a single win.
3/15/2013 5:24:27 PM
lori says:
you and I have agreed on next to nothing but on this issue and suing the city, go for it. They screwed up royally and if suing is the only way to make sure this kind of thing does not happen again, good luck with it.
3/16/2013 1:30:37 PM
BorderDave says:
Why dont the people in this city want to improve?? you all cry over being in the dark and in the stone age, yet you refute the Wind farm which will bring free energy
3/14/2013 4:20:50 PM
chemtech says:
The story says Irene Bond is not against wind power but against the location. That is obvious as it will take away the availability to create their own groomed trails in this area that is accessed from Loch Lomond. I have snowmobiled up there and seen the vast trails on crown land that 'certain opponents' have had exclusive use of for so many years. Now they will loose this tranquility.
3/14/2013 4:32:00 PM
david H says:
i am not a neebing resident but i am opposed to this project because of location. the norwesters are a near pristine wilderness, just beside our city. there is alot of space that has been previously logged, or otherwise disturbed, that would be appropriate for wind turbines. ie candy mtn. wilderness that has been untouched for probably 50+ years has is own inherent value, for the animals, mother nature, and recreation.
3/14/2013 5:25:01 PM
cabanaboy says:
BorderDave, explain to all of us what is "free" about wind turbines? Is it the higher energy rates? The massive decommission costs the city has to pay (ie our taxes)? The tax subsidies horizon gets? The actual cost of power to run them? The cost of potential lawsuits coming? I dont live out in that area but when you say "Free energy" you are vastly either uninformed or uneducated. Do yourself a favour and do some reading on how much surplus and cheaper energy we already have and produce with hydro electric. Nothing is free, your free is going to cost millions.
3/14/2013 5:27:54 PM
smarterthanyou says:
This might be a good thing for those who saved and worked to live in a nice area with a view. The property taxes should be cut in half while Westfort, Current River and the East End should double.
3/14/2013 6:24:09 PM
fan says:
I live in Thunder Bay (north) far away from the Nor'Westers. I do not want Horizon to be given permission to build wind farms anywhere near the Nor'Westers. My concerns are based in the environmental implications. For example, in Prince Edward County, where wind farms were constructed, all Whip-Poor-Wills have been destroyed. That's just the tip of the destruction iceberg.
How were respondents selected for this survey? I have some grave concerns about the process for gathering the information required to make collective good choices.
3/14/2013 6:33:58 PM
NearCanuck says:
Which Wind Turbine project was that? The Gilead Power project in Ostrander Point, PE County, is still under appeal and has not been constructed.
3/15/2013 10:57:15 AM
wayne says:
Telephone survey for the 4th poll to make sure the number of supporters increases a few more percentage points:

1. Would you be in favour of a wind farm being located atop the Nor'Westers if it meant that future flooding would not occur due to zero carbon and greenhouse gases being emitted into the air that you and your family breathe?

2. Would you be in favour of a wind farm on the Nor'Westers if it meant we will never again sue the city and you as a taxpayer?

3. If Horizon guaranteed that property values would not depreciate, would you be in favour of the wind farm?

If you said 'yes' to the previous questions, we will send you a ballot for a 1-in-600 chance to win a free trip for two to Horizon's new theme park which features the Pirates of the Green Energy Act ride.
3/14/2013 8:09:46 PM
hotchoc says:
And another story that glosses over the harsh reality of this situation.

That the city council of the day, for no other reason then a few dollars, signed a contract with a Toronto firm, with little or no consultation, that bound this city to allow this project on their land. Imagine for a moment if the city decided to allow fifteen cell towers in Vickers Park, or 10 windmills in Chapples Park. Everyone okay with that.

That council has saddled this community with very little gain and possibly decommissioning costs that will sky rocket.

Horizon does not have to pay to have these turbines removed folks. The money they have now provided as a result of a renegotiation is a pittance. I do not blame the business for taking advantage of the incompetence of our city council, but I sure do blame those who were and are on council.

They blew it.

And if I lived out there and suddenly my house value dropped 40 grand, without any consultation, darn right I'd be angry.
3/14/2013 10:37:20 PM
Big AL the peoples pal says:
hmmm, with all the people upset about increasing taxes due to recent property assessments, one would think a person would be happy to live a few kilomteres away from these windmills!
Why? think of it , you end up paying less tax when property values drop!!
i mean its not like the people against these turbines are about to jump up and leave! They are fighting tooth and nail because they love the area so much.
A 33% drop in value and a 33% drop in taxes over 10 years could be big money...
4,000 a year , 33% is 1333.00!
The loss of value in your house isnt money you actually lost, its speculative value you only get if you sell.
But every year you save big money!
a "wind win" situation! ask the wealthy barber real estate is not really money in your pocket unless you sell, but who wants to anyways if its a nice place!
Its twisted logic but it is logical.
3/18/2013 11:48:38 PM
anvil of crom says:
well you may be big but you wont be anyones pal that is anti windpark with that logic.
3/19/2013 10:40:59 PM
brooky says:
I am not against wind generated power. Nor do I live in Neebing, or anywhere near it. But the Norwesters are a gem that any city would love to have on their landscape. I can't fathom why anyone that lives in our fair city is ok with this? Deface the God given beauty that we are so lucky to have, for what benefit to us? Or to you personally? Can anyone here answer that for me? Cuz I just don't understand why any Thunder Bay resident is ok with this.
3/15/2013 1:21:39 AM
trevor99 says:
I can understand that some people are okay with turbines on the mountain. I am not one of them.

I just cannot fathom that anyone supports this deal. It is just a bad financial deal for Thunder Bay. With any luck someone can save us from it.

It seems to me the city has walked away from this issue because they signed a binding contract. They are hoping that the MPP or both MPP's can get them out of this and save them from what will be a long term disaster. Who knows if that will happen or not but hopefully.

Funny how the city has sat quietly by for a long time now on this topic. It is full steam ahead as far as they are concerned. A 100 million dollar lawsuit that they would probably lose is a good motivator to stay quiet.

To date the only head that has rolled is the former Mayor's. A tad unfair I would say and look what that election gave us. This should be a public inquiry here in our city.
3/15/2013 7:16:47 AM
youngintbay says:
Put the wind Farm on the Sleeping Giant. Or put it were ever you want. We have no say anyways. But I`m all for it.
3/15/2013 7:23:47 AM
bttnk says:
Waaaaah. My property value is going down.... Waaaaaah! Give it a rest people. Start thinking about the greater good. If you don't like it, too bad. You don't hear me complaining about the noise from the hospital, or the ORng helicopters flying over my River Terrace home. Should I insist they close the hospital and relocate it because I don't like the noise and traffic? Maybe the roof vetns are killing the local pigeon population or rare type of weed near by? Enough is enough.
3/15/2013 9:57:30 AM
vimeo says:
I guess you conveniently forgot to mention that YOUR property values have skyrocketed since the hospital went up. Grass is much greener on your side of the fence huh.

I bet you were one of the ones complaining about the proposed cell tower in your area too.

So, what is the greater good? Higher priced electricity? Getting stuck with another Pool7 take down in 20years?

I'm sure we'll hear from you in ten years when your house sinks in the muskeg like those in Northwood.
3/15/2013 10:55:40 AM
octane says:
People that are complaining about the noises these things make are just full of it...a plane flying over head?? really??

There is a wind turbine in the middle of Arbor Lakes Shopping Centre just outside of Minneapolis. This is a brand new developing area...I have been to this area a few times.
I have been within 50ft of the turbine when it was spinning...couldn't hear a thing.

Quit reading garbage rumours off the net and then spreading it like its the truth.

I really doubt the Dorion windfarm is that loud bottleneck...

waaaaah waaaaah..they cut down some trees..
waaaaah my property value is goin down

You don't like the wind turbines.. move..sell your house..

All you people crying about the animals...The animals don't pay property tax..

All you people complaining should be given the option.. You don't want wind turbines..they your property taxes can foot the bill for the lost revenue.... I doubt anyone of you would go for that then
3/15/2013 11:08:56 AM
octane says:
Look at this..wind turbine in Arbor Lakes, MN..
next to a medical centre
WOW!!!!!
Tbnewswatch.com

3/15/2013 11:11:56 AM
Tiredofit says:
That s a fraction of the size of what's planned for Horizon. It's closer to what Con College has. Apples to oranges as usual octane
3/16/2013 12:01:56 PM
nuggets says:
Watch this CDC DOC Zone episode
3/15/2013 11:28:36 AM
eyeinthesky75 says:
Just a quick survey of my own.

HOW MANY OF YOU APPOSED TO THE WIND PARK ARE ALSO CLIMATE CHANGE DENIALISTS?

I'm going to guess at least 50%
3/15/2013 12:05:25 PM
eyeinthesky75 says:
and yes I meant OPPOSED not APPOSED.
3/15/2013 12:37:44 PM
stuck? says:
Nobody could "appose" it even if we all gave 200%.

I don't agree with the placement of the wind farm, but I will say climate change is 100% real.

All for finding alternate sources of energy, and clean energy at that but disrupting a natural and beautiful environment like that is a waste.
3/15/2013 2:27:13 PM
eyeinthesky75 says:
So your opposed from a purely aesthetic point of view. This is a week argument. IF you had some legitimate ecological argument many would sympathize and even listen. But that fact remains is we must start setting up the infrastructure of alternative sources of energy ,regardless of the initial cost. Every location may not be optimal aesthetically but you can not argue that the proposed location is not an excellent location for harnessing wind energy.
3/15/2013 4:50:08 PM
BorderDave says:
Hey babies!!!, the Wind Farm is coming... like it or leave the city!!
3/15/2013 1:18:29 PM
wayne says:
octane, Infrasound is the real 'noise' issue with turbines and not sounds in the audible range.

eyeinthsky, I am opposed to the location for the wind park and I am not in denial about climate change.
3/15/2013 2:19:06 PM
barry medawin says:
When wind changes direction, these giant propellers will keep spinning, generating more wind and there will be damages to nearby rooftops as a result. Also, it has been said that some large birds can be injured by a side swipe, then crash into nearby living-room windows.

Who wants a goose breaking through the glass in their living-room!? These things should NOT be near a house!
3/15/2013 2:30:08 PM
Bigtime says:
Wow...wow...wow...You have to be the most uneducated, misinformed person I have seen commenting on tbnewswatch...Please, feel free to actually educate yourself on how these work. Your comment was a waste of time (as they usually are). Everyone here is now dumber for having to see it. I am so sorry that our educational system has failed you so terribly.
3/16/2013 12:01:09 PM
thepoorman says:
Wind turbines do not spin on their own. They only spin when the wind is blowing against the blades. They are not giant fans, and do not generate wind. The only time they spin when the wind is blowing in a different direction from where they are facing is if the wind is strong enough to damage the turbine in some way, in which case they spin just enough with the wind in order to prevent any stress damage.
3/16/2013 12:01:51 PM
trips says:
the earth has been heating up and cooling down forever ...we just happen to be on the heating up side of this ice age...nothing can be done its part of nature
3/15/2013 3:38:59 PM
tbayguy009 says:
The global warming scientists had to cancel their spring meeting in NY this year.

Because of a snow storm.

Go figure.
3/15/2013 6:20:27 PM
octane says:
Wayne...Not according to bottleneck.

"they were also surprised by the sheer size of the turbines and noise they made, akin to an airplane flying overhead"

Not even close to the truth

Also..while doing some reading on Infra sound..it seems to effect 10% of the people...While I guess those 10% are going to have to move..

Just because some people are allergic to peanuts doesn't mean you have to ban them from the city and let everyone else pay for your disorder

Suck it up and move away from the turbines
The solution is simple
Lots of property out on Lakeshore Drive and beyond
3/15/2013 3:53:34 PM
Dan Fiorito says:
I'm sorry, I'm supposed to move because of this? You want to force me or other residents? Not without a fight Octane. These turbines being placed on the mountains are 540ft high, the mountain in question is about 600ft. The Dorion ones are smaller and a different manufacture. No comparison.

Why should I be forced to move because of a greedy Toronto businessman who has proven time and time again he doesn't care about the residents nor the rights of the First Nations.

I've spent a life time working hard to build what I have and WILL NOT be pushed out, not without a fight. How about I come and devalue 50% of what you own and make millions in the process, don't like it? MOVE.

The other problem is, try selling it with those monsters in your front yard... not very easy and only at a great loss (see my previous post for the verified facts jack).

It's always so simple when your not affected isn't it.
3/15/2013 6:01:44 PM
Dan Fiorito says:
Here's why Horizon wants to do this:

A 2 megawatt wind turbine with a capacity factor of 28% would produce 4,906 megawatt hours of electricity in one year.

The rate paid by Ontario Power Authority for land based wind turbines is 13.5 cents per kilowatt hour or $135 per megawatt hour plus an increase indexed to the Ontario Consumer Price Index. This amount is guaranteed by the Province of Ontario for 20 years and the Ontario Power Authority buys all the electricity produced by wind turbines.

A 2 MW wind turbine with a 28% capacity factor would generate a gross income before expenses and taxes of about $662,256 in its first year based on the FIT rate of 13.5 cents per kilowatt hour that was in effect for contracts entered into before March 22, 2012.

Need I say more? Factor that times 8 and that's just the start, they have 5 more request in place for upwards of 70+ turbines.
3/15/2013 6:14:14 PM
tbayguy009 says:
If you are going to try to wake people up on this site, you should also add that Ontario Hydro is charging customers 7.4 cents per kilowatt hour (and 8.7).

Given your numbers (which are correct), paying 13.5 cents while charging cutomers 7.4, is exactly why there is no denial that this is a subsidized scam to benifit Horizon (and the likes).

In a long letter to the editor of the CJ, an elderly gentleman accounted for the total cost of living increases over a year. Very detailed. Of special note he factually recorded a 35% increase in electricity costs since time of use. (same year to year consumption)

No one paid attention, since the point of his letter was about overall inflation. Electricity is only a portion

Two years ago, I argued that rates would increase. Now it is showing up. And MUCH more to come.

Anyone thinking that wind generation is free, has blinders on.

And living with those blinders, I guess those wind supporters of course won't see the destruction of Nor Westers.
3/16/2013 11:55:58 AM
Neebing1414 says:
how about all you people who are saying "suck it up or move" why don't you give up the area you were born and raised in, the area you have come to know like the back of your hand.. i am not for giving up where i grew up because of some "green energy"

did you know that on a good day only 40% of the wind turbines in ontario produce any power at all.. and thats not to say the same 40% generate power day after day. those are horrible odds that this will generate power.. currently as of 9pm only 18.9% of the wind capacity was at work

also they are only good at generating electricity when the wind reaches roughly 15-20kmh.. and thats after they get a kick start using electricity from the grid. and once the wind reaches 70-80kmh they are no longer able to operate due to it being unsafe and need to use electricity to stop them.. so to sum it up so everyone understands, it takes energy to start producing energy everyday with wind turbines since the wind speed usually drops below 5kmh at night
3/15/2013 10:05:22 PM
bottleneck says:
Octane, have you been to the Dorion wind farm? I went the other day after my friends told me about it. Those turbines are HUGE! And yes, they are also quite noisy. You should go yourself and have a look and listen before you say people's concerns are "not even close to the truth". You have no idea what the truth is unless you've been there to see for yourself. Check it out, you'll be as surprised as I was, and believe me, you wouldn't want those in your back yard. If you do, I'm sure you can buy a house in Neebing.
3/15/2013 10:06:40 PM
thepoorman says:
I've been to a wind farm in Kincardine, Ontario, and heard no noise whatsoever. That's on a day when the wind was having every one of the dozens of turbines in the area spinning quite happily.
3/16/2013 12:25:42 PM
shiho says:
havent heard whether anyone (especially wind farm supporters) have asked for a copy of the poll, questions, judicial review application, etc.

I would love to hear whether they share information- because I have found its like pulling teeth

with respect to the poll check out the title- a representative survey of the city of thunder bay and the thunder bay atitkokan electoral district- sounds like its being done to get mike and bills attention.

Interesting that that might backfire - politicians look carefully at polls and about half voters support and half oppose the wind farm in thunder bay- atikokan



3/15/2013 10:08:01 PM
wayne says:
octane, comparing peanut allergies to infrasound-sensitive people is ridiculous. By the way, everyone is affected by infrasound, some more than others. Is 10% of the population allergic to peanuts? If so, they can choose to avoid peanuts and related foods. A wind park placed in proximity to a residential area gives no choice to the residents. If you did your research, you would also know that the topography and shape of the escarpment and area/valley below, creates a natural amplification 'bowl' for infrasound and audible sound to travel further with increased intensity.
3/16/2013 2:27:52 AM
Big AL the peoples pal says:
A bowl ? interesting! where can i find this info on the topography and this amplification effect?
Is it online? who did the study?
3/16/2013 7:37:40 PM
wayne says:
I don't live in Neebing, and I was a proponent of the wind farm in the beginning, until I read and researched the facts and listened to the many knowledgeable and informed members of NMEPC who invested thousands of hours on the issues over the past four or more years. I was a real pain in the ass for NMEPC for a year of so...lol Check out the shady dealings by Horizon and their other aliases. Our city was not the first one they sued over green energy act projects that were not properly planned nor sited.
3/16/2013 2:40:58 AM
wayne says:
and while I was a proponent of the wind farm, I asked Horizon via email if their proposed make and model of wind turbines had built-in fire suppression, lightning protection, and de-icing systems, and what their ERP (emergency response plan)would be to potential disasters, and I never received a reply.
3/16/2013 2:56:27 AM
vimeo says:
Well said. They rarely do reply to stuff that they don't want you to know. It's kinda like a cult. Look at some of the comments on here. Many have no clue what they're talking about but they're incredibly passionate having been blindly led.
Yes, you were a pain back then ;), but at least you were polite and reasonable. I can't stand blow hards to cut you down without a stating a valid point.
3/16/2013 3:58:14 PM
wayne says:
In the photo for this story, doesn't it look like the young girl is looking into the camera and thinking, "WTF? this isn't even a scale model, and how can you demonstrate a wind turbine indoors without movement of air? I call B.S. on your 'facts' and 'science'!"
3/16/2013 3:13:03 AM
lori says:
Since yesterday afternoon, I have been in the company of about 27 different people who I have spoken to one on one.

2 people were okay with the windfarm project as it is proposed, the rest were against it.

Not a scientific poll but it was my results and they lived all over the city.

I find it hard to believe that 2/3 of this city support this.

If Horizon wants to truly demonstrate this support release the questions from the poll to the media.

Not sure why the media has not asked for this information.
3/16/2013 9:14:32 AM
BorderDave says:
100% in favor of the Wind Farms!!!!!
3/16/2013 4:24:01 PM
hoey says:
lol, you people are so easy to upset....calm down
3/17/2013 10:37:58 AM
dank says:
The windfarm issue is one thing. Allowing a rotten organization like Horizon wind to bully us and ruin the norwesters is the real issue. One poster had a good idea though. If the turbines have to go up, put them in Marina park. They would be a good fit with the bent pieces of angle iron.
3/17/2013 11:42:04 AM
collie says:
Ther are pros and cons to the windfarm. Fact though is that it will look NASTY when first built Fact it will change the Scenery of the area Fact Survey's CAN be skewed to show favour to one side. AN honest survey should include ALL not a few. FACT Now if the Windfarm was moved to another location that isnt so visible SUCH as the ones in Dorion this arguement would NOT be happening. I respect the wishes of the residents and see their point on destroying their scenerey, I am okay with the Windfarm Just move it to a less obtrusive location. Problem solved What is the big deal??? Would have cost less to do this than keep spending money on this location!!!!
3/17/2013 1:01:40 PM
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