Tbnewswatch Local News
Friday July 3 2015
4:18 PM EDT
2014-06-10 at 01:41

Support shown

By Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com

THUNDER BAY -- A majority of Thunder Bay supports a new event centre but only 13 per cent see it as one of the city's most important issues according to a new survey.

Ipsos Reid found that around 61 per cent of people in the city were either strongly or somewhat in favour of the project. It's the same result the city found during its latest citizen's satisfaction survey done last year.

That number jumps to around 74 per cent including people who want a new centre but not as its currently proposed.

It was conducted using 1,000 people within city limits with a 3.1 per cent margin of error. Ipsos Reid research manager Lauren Hilderley told council Monday night that political polls are usually done using 800 people province-wide. She said around 91 per cent of people had heard of the project.

The event centre was number five on a list of the most important issues for people following roads, taxes, infrastructure renewal and jobs. The number one reason, 27 per cent, people were in favour of the project was that the city needs a new, bigger, better facility. At 34 per cent the top reason people opposed the project was that the city couldn't afford it.

Parking came in at 30 per cent as the number one concern. On taxes 64 per cent said a one per cent increase, an average of $24 a year, would be very or somewhat acceptable for the centre. That number dropped to 58 per cent for a 1.5 per cent increase.

By ward Westfort, 53 per cent strongly or somewhat, showed the lowest support for the project. Current River, McIntyre and McKellar were the highest at 68 per cent.

Demographically 52 per cent of respondents were female. Around 39 per cent were over 55, 73 per cent didn't have children under 18 and 83 per cent were homeowners. While 21 per cent refused to give household income, 20 per cent said $50,000 to less than $75,000.

Coun. Aldo Ruberto said the survey was done to prove to "naysayers" that there is support for an event centre in the city.

"The naysayers sometimes cost us money in the longrun," he said. "It's very frustrating sometimes.

The results and questions can be viewed here

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dan dan says:
Please let that be the end of all the nonsense calls for a plebiscite. The population is clearly in favour of the proposed events centre. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clearly projecting their own feelings onto the rest of us that support this project wholeheartedly.
6/11/2014 9:41:32 AM
Shane Caker says:
There's no way that this project isn't gonna go because of the naysayers. The only stumbling block now is the provincial and federal funding. Time to hang up your sign for good Ray.
6/10/2014 10:14:11 PM
Watchful says:
Mr Ruberto, you should get out of council and go back to hair school. Who are you to put down anyone who has concerns. I will be for this if every single council member and his royal highness Hobbs take a one year 50 per cent cut in pay. If you want it, stick your money in the pot or shut up
6/10/2014 10:03:35 PM
Cletus Van Damme says:
Here are a few facts to chew on...

1) The Ipsos Reid Poll cost you people forty grand.

2) 1000 people were polled.

This equates to $40 per person polled!!!

Telespammers (marketers) must be makin' some serious dabloons these days, no?

6/10/2014 7:30:24 PM
Kam River says:
Dear Aldo:
If the survey is so great would you be so kind to provide TBNewswatch with a copy of the questions
So they can share them with the community.
Everything about this EventsCentre has been less than transparent.
6/10/2014 6:48:40 PM
sprintfan says:
I guess Aldo is unaware that the electorate in a democracy has a responsibility to hold elected representatives accountable and ensure they are representing them. Somehow Aldo & Hobbs chose to attempt to bully them, calling those who voice their concerns names such as "Naysayers" & "Fear Mongers". We are neither Aldo, we are tax payers excercising our democratic right to be heard by those elected to represent us, and because we give a damn! With such distain shown by you Mr Ruberto & Mr Hobbs, you are showing yourself to be arrogant & small men, with zero respect for the tax payers!
6/10/2014 5:07:34 PM
S Duncan says:
I just went through the survey. It is a complete farce. I can find errors and misinformation on each and every page of it. It contradicts itself and asks leading questions that border on ridiculous.

When I do the questions, I myself would answer "somewhat support" to many of them yet I strongly oppose this mess. It does not take into account any thing other than open ended questions.

One that made me laugh was on pg 22 the little people diagram states that those supporting this claim "We need this for our children... etc..."

but when you look at the statistics of those surveyed on page 32, it claims that 73% of people surveyed DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 18 living there!!!!

So, what is it? right there it shoots itself in the foot!

Next, anybody that's read the questions and thinks that "somewhat support" actually means that those people are in favour of this idea as it stands has rocks in their heads.

Keith Hobbs, you need real help if you think 73% support this!

6/10/2014 5:03:07 PM
Enquirer says:
"S Duncan" (ha), I am wondering, how does that "shoot itself in the foot"?

On page 22, I see the mention of children three times, once as a quoteable from one of the respondents who had identified themselves in the "strongly support" category, and "More likely to have children <18" in that category; once more under the "strongly oppose" category as "Less likely to have children <18".

No where does this mention percentages that would contradict page 32's frequency information on "Number of children under 18 in home".

How, in what way, does this contradict anything?

How does "somewhat support" not equate to some level/favour toward the project? The category in itself implies there is "somewhat" of a level of support.

But please...go on and outline the other errors and misinformation...because you have not presented any thus far. Happy researching!
6/10/2014 10:55:07 PM
Eastender says:
Somewhat support , means , somewhat dont support. So you can't claim that as a victory for the support side. You of all people should know that, since you seem to be fairly astute in the technicalities of statistics and polls.
6/11/2014 11:16:41 AM
sd says:
I hate the fact that I am writing this a few days following the release of the article and your comment to it. I have stayed off this site for a while now because I cannot take the back and forth roundabouts that everyone is on about this topic. The horse is dead; stop beating it.
Anyhow, on to my reply:
"I just went through the survey. It is a complete farce. I can find errors and misinformation on each and every page of it. It contradicts itself and asks leading questions that border on ridiculous."
So basically what you are saying is that the survey was exactly like every single one of your comments?
6/12/2014 2:11:48 AM
sprintfan says:
30% hard support 30% soft support screams Build It? If you split the soft support then 55% would not support it! If this does not clearly scream out this NEEDS to be decided by a plebiscite/referendum then there is zero question as to there being an under the table deal of some kind!
6/10/2014 4:55:25 PM
Wolfie says:
But then you would also have to split the "soft opposition", again putting the "pro" side into majority territory.
6/11/2014 9:29:49 AM
SomeGuy says:
I reject their conclusions and substitute my own, because I can just make stuff up making my findings the true ones.
6/10/2014 4:54:35 PM
Jamie Smith says:
Sorry, the survey wasn't available online last night. It is now, including the questions. http://www.thunderbay.ca/Assets/City+Government/Event+Centre/docs/IPSOS+TBECC+Survey+Report.pdf
6/10/2014 4:22:33 PM
S Duncan says:
You would think that a respectable city council would have those results released to the public so they can inform their councillors how to vote in this matter.

Trying to ram it in under the cover of darkness only fuels the fires of discontent with council.

A true representative of the people would let the people decide and respond to them through ward meetings, phone calls, emails, etc..

but before the vote, not after.

Shame, shame Hobbs. Your promise of transparency has long left the citizens of Thunder Bay.

Its time for you to go too.
6/10/2014 5:11:39 PM
Whodo says:
I agree Pandora, it has been a 60-40 split on every poll and survey all along.
This is why they(City Administration and Council) will not allow the democratic process like a plebiscite because they too know what the true outcome would be.
It is 60% opposed to tax dollars paying for an event centre at this time.
6/10/2014 4:19:38 PM
Watchful says:
I do not think this survey shows overwhelming support for an event center. I think it shows a need for a lot more information, I think it is a population saying it might be a nice idea but open honest information regarding the true cost to the taxpayer to build and then operate this center and the Fort William Gardens in what ever shape that takes on is required. Phase Three should be completed without signing any contracts with our Partners. Maybe Council should go to Thunder Bay Hydro, who (owns? and operates it) And ask them how much money and time it will to move this substation. Maybe council should ask our partners how much are they contributing to this center. So far all I seem to see from our partners is their hand out asking for more.
6/10/2014 4:00:14 PM
ddemetra says:
The survey was a farce, with loaded questions.
City admin paid them to get the answer they wanted.
My wife was interviewed, and even the person interviewing could hardly keep a straight face.

Question "The new event center will bring millions of dollars into our community, does this make you feel supportive, neutral, of not supportive"
6/10/2014 3:37:04 PM
Enquirer says:
My my, you really need to stop trolling.

I ask, how was your wife involved in a face-to-face interview when the poll was conducted strictly by telephone? How could she have seen the face of an interviewer when it was done by telephone?

From the survey's section on methodology: "The survey was conducted by telephone between May 8 and 22, 2014 [...]".

Source: http://www.thunderbay.ca/Assets/City+Government/Event+Centre/docs/IPSOS+TBECC+Survey+Report.pdf (page 4)

Funny enough...I don't see the "question" you posted anywhere in the list provided in the link above?

Tisk, tisk. If you are going to troll, at least make it believable!
6/10/2014 10:11:15 PM
grs says:
The closest I could see was page 37. ddmetra, maybe you should read the entire section. It isn't a loaded question. It's meant to gauge support based on phase 2 facts.

I think the biggest problem with the commenters here and people against this project is that they don't read thoroughly. Either that or lack the capability to fully understand the information.

Many give the impression that the moment anything is mentioned of the event centre their eyes narrow, a sneer comes over their face, they see red, and begin to bang away on their keyboard while sputtering, fuming, and spitting all over their screen, all while babbling incoherently.

I know it's not true but that's what comes to mind when I read these comments.

And the $27k over - they probably called Ray Smith as part of the poll and he tied up the person on the phone for 180 hours (180 * $150/hr = $27k over), rambling on about a plebiscite.
6/11/2014 9:06:54 AM
homelessteen says:
So 13% are expressing this as an important issue facing our city.

To me this means 87% + - 3.1 do not feel strongly enough to consider is pressing.

That may be the best indicator in all the data.

6/10/2014 2:19:51 PM
signman says:
It should be noted that 17% of those surveyed did not own a home. Did they rent or just live for free with mom and dad?
Makes a big difference if you actually have to pay for something and consequently this poll becomes even less credible.

Also you can tell an election will take place this year. Many of these councillors state they are sorry for the pain they are inflicting on the taxpayers and will hold up their hand reluctantly to vote in favour of the Event Centre.

If they actually meant what they say they would not hold up their hand at all. They would VOTE NO to this huge tax burden some call a WHITE ELEPHANT!

Remember Mayor Hobbs recently stated the city is strapped and has to tighten the purse strings. He also stated it's a bad time to ask the city for money referring to a Youth Centre's request for a one time $25,000 dollar grant.
Mr Commisso states this will be an economic driver.
It will drive taxes up!
More people out of their homes!

6/10/2014 2:10:05 PM
fastball says:
Mr. Signman - even if taxes go up 1 percent, it's been estimated that an additional 25 dollars on your tax bill. If a 25 dollar hike is something you "can't afford" and will "drive you out of your home" - perhaps you are living beyond your means somehow.
Cities are ALWAYS strapped. I defy you to find me one city ANYWHERE in the world that can categorically state that they're doing just fine and nothing needs to be fixed.
6/10/2014 4:18:47 PM
ring of fire dude says:
That would be $25 / month at the rate the City Administration is bleeding taxpayers money , and that $25 is just for the build . Next tax increase will be to pay TBLive to run the arena and cover any losses they incur for people not showing up for "events".
6/11/2014 8:34:45 AM
Jon Powers says:

"Coun. Ruberto is right. The naysayers need to be proven wrong"

Where's your proof that the City is right?

This is a simple "Phone Survey" not a "Consensus". That fact came from the pollster herself.

"We need to look at these results as a good thing. Time to start putting shovels in the ground"

What's the hurry?

Your City Government wasted $47,000.00 last night just for their own ego's.

What a reckless use of public funds.

A Plebiscite would have cost nothing during the City Election.


Please tell us who at the city allowed your group to rally on city property?

Please post the names of all the BIA's that gave you money for it too?

Great Story!

6/10/2014 1:31:42 PM
Jetpowered says:
Hey localguy....that's a bold statement....have any proof? Ya probably not!
6/10/2014 1:02:07 PM
Jetpowered says:
Some of you naysayers are out to lunch! Ipsos Reid is a national company that is very experienced .....if you think the poll is skewed one way your wrong....this is what they do. And I doubt they are calling people out of the city.
6/10/2014 12:57:27 PM
Eastender says:
Its $20,000.00 for an unbiased poll. But if you want to guarantee favourable results, its $47,000.00.
6/10/2014 7:54:05 PM
varga says:
There is one GLARING problem with trying to rationalize with many of "the naysayers", particularly the few that constantly speak out against the event center. They are not interested. They simply wish to be heard. Most of their platform is based on misinformation, sound bites an outright ignorance. This was proven at the "information sessions" when people that were pro event center tried to speak and were booed and heckled. Now the results of a professional poll, of course, are not valid or were corrupted and the results of a poll on this website that has a total of 376 votes so far and are by no means accurate or representative of the community are used to refute it!? Come on guys this is getting ridiculous! Also, as expected, there are the cries again for plebiscite which was voted down and if the results came back pro event center these same people would be crying foul again anyway. Attack the facts, discuss the issues and stop with the conspiracies...
6/10/2014 11:28:48 AM
fairlane says:
I've said it before....back in 1982 we listened to the same debate over the Community Auditorium. Even our Mayor, rest his soul Walter Assef was sternlely against it. But we built it. It was over budget. It's needed repairs, and it's a money loser.

But can you imagine a Thunder Bay without it? Picture concerts, shows, grads etc having to go elsewhere. We couldn't afford it then, but we can't live without it now.

Just some food for thought.
6/10/2014 11:17:36 AM
Tiredofit says:
As someone who took part in the poll, I can tell you that the way some of the questions were worded I had really questioned the survey taker. The answers could have been used either way. I wish I had recorded it.

Perhaps some one can get the questions published. For example, I was asked if I was in favour and responded only if all three parties would pony up their shares. So that question could be used to say that I'm a 100% in favour, yet I'm not, all three must provide their shares.

I clearly stated that I also wanted a plebiscite as well, but we won't get it for a variety of reasons.

The question about the increase of $24 or whatever it was, I said no, I don't think its fair, it seems its always $25 here and $25 there, it all adds up for these "wishful plans" they want.

It's one of those questionnaires that can be used either way if you ask me. That's the beauty of it, these companies like Ipsos know how to work the questions.
6/10/2014 11:12:41 AM
Rock49 says:
To the naysayers, you don't like the results of this true independant poll because a person can only be polled once, not like internet polls where you can click LIKE as many times as you want. As for a plebiscite, we'll all get our vote for city council in Oct. Why are you so afraid of the upcoming election results?
6/10/2014 10:44:05 AM
myopic not foolish says:
How ironic the poll on this site reflects a different result than Ipsos Reid is telling us. And really. They spent millions of dollars on the studies. Does anyone honestly think they would even publish negative results for the event centre? Basically, having this event centre run by our administration is like giving a 6 year old the keys to drive our Lamborghini.
6/10/2014 10:20:33 AM
bluebear1985 says:
Coun. Ruberto is right. The naysayers need to be proven wrong. This crowd of naysayers seem to be getting smaller and smaller by the day. Before the council meeting last night, there was a handful of them walking around city hall with plebiscite signs. Among them were Ray Smith, the chair of the Concerned Taxpayers of Thunder Bay group, and Henry Wojak, the self-prolcaimed mayor-in-waiting. Apparently these two and a few others were said to have been marching around outside for around an hour before the meeting. During the meeting itself, there was even someone who made a statement made by someone who was continuing to push for one, with the statement only lasting a few minutes. There were no questions by any members of council, nor did they take him seriously, judging by their facial expressions. They just thanked him and that was that.
We need to look at these results as a good thing. Time to start putting shovels in the ground.
6/10/2014 10:15:06 AM
Eastender says:
Well what are you waiting for, get your shovel out there. Oh, wait, you need me to buy that shovel for you first.
6/10/2014 7:47:55 PM
dynamiter says:
Post the questions in the survey!
6/10/2014 9:53:02 AM
advocate says:
People should not blame the results of the survey or conclude that they are invalid because they are a survey.

What you should do is blame yourself for not taking a proper statistics class, so that you can understand the idea behind sample sizes.
6/10/2014 9:52:22 AM
Pandora says:
I trust the accuracy of today's newswatch poll ...
I will bet today's poll will be closer to a 60-40% split and that is the same split for the event centre, it's closer to 60% opposed.

6/10/2014 9:46:11 AM
Eastender says:
Of course there will be those that say you can click more than once, but I dont believe that that is happening to any great degree, and of course, that goes equally for both sides. So, in the long run, its still pretty much indicative of the sentiment towards the event centre. Most people are against it.
6/10/2014 7:44:57 PM
fastball says:
"Most people are against it."....most being the people OTHER than the 61 percent that are in favor of (strongly or otherwise) the proposal.
Face it...in this town (and every other town practically) you've got 20 percent of the population that rabidly in favor of ANY issue...and 20 percent that are dead against. Then you've got 50 percent that are "sure, yeah/no/whatever. As long as I don't need to get off the couch"...and the rest just don't understand the question.
Honestly, look at the numbers on this poll. The same proportion "somewhat support" or "somewhat disagree" with the question.
(throws hands in the air)
6/11/2014 6:34:30 PM
zeppelin says:
Just shut up and build the damn thing! The majority of Thunder Bay will enjoy it, isn't that the point?
6/10/2014 9:29:22 AM
signman says:
Not only does this survey appear to be skewed it has
DOUBLED IN COST FROM $20,000 to $40,000 dollars
6/10/2014 9:16:50 AM
brandon says:
Survey price meant to be $20k. Why 47K now!? More than 100% over budget!?!?!?!?!?
6/10/2014 9:13:08 AM
Eastender says:
So who gets the extra $27,000.00. I guess 47.000 is tne new 20,000.
Please explain Commisso, Hobbs?
6/10/2014 7:38:35 PM
nivlacw says:
I'm glad to see there is support for the event centre. It is time to proceed with this to enhance the attractions in our city. If we keep saying no, we will not move forward and will not attract the tourism needed as well as be a place for people to move to Thunder Bay. Very positive news.
6/10/2014 9:12:53 AM
brandon says:
So a city paid poll only got 30% strongly in favour. Wasn't this supposed to show lots of support? Thats low.
30% had some support? Most people would say they have some support for it. No surprise. But don't pretend 61% in favour based on this. Thats laughable.

30% in favour, 31% support some aspects of it but aren't ready to strongly support.
6/10/2014 9:05:29 AM
Dockboy says:
I don't believe those results, the survey is cooked, hand picked contributors.
6/10/2014 8:39:39 AM
fastball says:
By all means - if you don't like the results, then call the whole process invalid and corrupt. I see that all the time. Mostly though, I see it in kids when they lose at a board game. They throw the game pieces to floor and stomp off in disgust, saying "This is a STUPID game!"
Yup, sounds the same.
6/10/2014 11:01:08 AM
Eastender says:
Fastball, isn't that exactly what you and your pro event centre cabal did when polls by Ray, and TBnewswatch came out in favour of the nays. And look at the polls in todays TBnewswatch.
This is a stupid game isn't it.
6/10/2014 7:34:31 PM
fastball says:
The day that I equate a poll conducted by a nationally recognized professional company (that surveyed 20% more people at random for a freakin' event center than they usually poll for a provincial ELECTION) to a poll conducted in a mall or in a amateur-hour TBayNewswatch - well, that'll be the day.
You've got a hardcore cadre of naysayers here. Of course, any "poll" conducted here is going to be skewed. That's like holding a poll on pot legalization at a Snoop Dogg concert.
6/10/2014 11:29:51 PM
humnchuck says:
I feel the same way about gravity...
6/10/2014 11:22:22 PM
RAM501 says:
I trust that Ipsos Reid is independent and has the skill and experience to conduct this poll. Now that we know there is a majority in favour of the project lets continue to move forward with this phase of the Events Center.
6/10/2014 8:38:32 AM
Sugar says:
Which 1000 people did u survey?the ones they knew were for the Centre.I did not receive a call and I am a taxpayer..I also know a few people who had a vote and they live outside city limits.
6/10/2014 8:37:51 AM
fastball says:
Honestly? You're saying that Ipsos KNEW which households were supportive of this initiative...and specifically targeted them to skew the results?
Wow. That's a leap, I tell you.
6/10/2014 10:56:58 AM
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musicferret says:
First of all, 61% in a poll paid for by a city that wants the poll to find support, is not very strong.

Second, and most importantly, 30% were 'support somewhat'.
That term is so vague and general..... I for instance, support the events centre somewhat but believe that $100m+ is a ridiculously high number. But that survey would have decided I was a supporter and lumped me into that 61%.

Plebiscite please.

6/10/2014 8:37:38 AM
fastball says:
Give me a break....if the findings had been 61 percent the OTHER way, certain people would be crowing from the rooftops that this was YET ANOTHER indication of the majority's wishes!
I'll give you that 100M is a ridiculous number...but it's a good thing we're not paying 100M, right?
6/10/2014 10:31:11 AM
Eastender says:
"I'll give you that a 100 million is ridiculous number" finally you said something sensible, although it'll be more like 150 million with the gardens makeover, and various cost overruns.
Then there will be the tsunami of tax increases to make up for the years of neglect to infrastructure. Hope you have an indexed pension.
6/10/2014 7:29:27 PM
rob20 says:
So in other words to summarize, a survey that was demographically made up of predominantly well paid, 18-54 year old person with a high amount of disposable income, due to being in a good wage bracket and having no dependents, likely living in the wards closest to the proposed site, and including everyone saying just barely "I'm kind of it favour of it but..." gives you 61% in favour of it. Ok, gee, that doesn't sound at all like results have been molded to present a skewed representation of what the feedback ACTUALLY says when you read between the lines... ignoring the fact it was listed as the 5th biggest concern in the city behind roads, taxes, infrastructure renewal and jobs... all of which are really tonnes more important.
6/10/2014 8:33:22 AM
spazz says:
20% of those surveyed were in the 50-75k household (not individual) range. other than that there is no info on how much people surveyed make.
39% of those surveyed were over 55 years old.

if you're going to call out the city on spinning the numbers you should do your own number spinning in a seperate post so it's not so blatant.
6/10/2014 1:57:30 PM
rob20 says:
The point was you can spin numbers Captain Obvious
6/10/2014 2:27:33 PM
signman says:
Let's be clear on one thing. This survey did nothing to satisfy the majority of taxpayers who want plebiscite on this huge and controversial expenditure.
The percentage taxpayers will have to pay in order to support this project was wrong in the Ipsos Reid survey according to Linda Ryholm. She suggested it would be double the amount used in the survey as the information Mr. Commisso supplied to Ipsos did not include capital expenditures.
Most would agree this survey was a complete waste of taxpayers money. As councillor Hebert previously stated credibility of surveys is an issue.

Councillor Ruberto has it all wrong again. It is people like him who are the real naysayers. They continue to deny all eligible voters a say on this huge expenditure.
And it was Mr. Commisso and company who wanted the survey.
Holding a plebiscite would be the correct thing to, but it would be too risky for these elected officials.

The only scientific survey is called a
6/10/2014 7:52:56 AM
spazz says:
there you go again, talking like you are the voice of the masses. I found the survey satisfying and I'm one of the taxpayers. Even if it is double the percentage and my taxes go up by $50 a year I find that an acceptable trade off.
6/10/2014 2:09:10 PM
Eastender says:
Your taxes wil go up a lot more than 50 dollars. Thats what they want you to believe. Your taxes will increase to astronomical proportions once the final tally is in, and thats if the two other levels of gov't chip in as expected. However, should that not happen, do you tnink this administration will give up this project? They will surely pursue this thing come hell or high water to the bitter end irregardless of cost overruns, or increased taxes. Why? I tnink it is obvious if you care to think about it.
6/11/2014 1:08:01 AM
Joey_J says:
Run for Mayor Vs Hobbs. Let's get the true gauge of what you are selling vs what he is selling.

Challenge is out Mr Smith: File your nominatin papers for the biggest plebiscite of your life
6/10/2014 7:08:27 PM
Enquirer says:
Careful there, Joey!

Don't go and put out a reasonable suggestion to Ray! It is FAR easier for him to sit behind a keyboard and blame others rather than run for office and try to drive change that way.

Where do you get off, buddy?!
6/10/2014 10:57:37 PM
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Eastender says:
We would be so fortunate to have a person of integrity finally run for the mayors chair.
Sometimes one can accomplish much more with words than with a bulldozer.
6/11/2014 10:59:12 AM
loring says:
did the survey also make note if the people surveyed actually owned a home and payed taxes directly? and yes i support the center as long as my taxes dont go up so was that noted as well? the only way this makes sence is if our taxes are lowered or at least neutral!
6/10/2014 6:57:00 AM
Tbayvoter says:
One perhaps small issue also with the Surveys Claim of being within city limits... I know for fact Numerous people living outside city limits have numbers that have the same first 3 numbers as those that are within city limits. For example 767, 768, 683, 983, 475, 623 are just ones I know of from friends who live outside city limits. Also for those that may say anything about the 983 one I know of a family friend who has this number inside city limits as well.
6/10/2014 4:03:40 AM
RelaxinginMurillo says:
You are correct that Tbaytel numbers have been "portable" for many years now.
They probably either used a voter roll list or just asked at the beginning of the call ?

6/10/2014 7:14:12 AM
Wolfie says:
I didn't get called, but I would imagine that respondents were first asked if they were residents of Thunder Bay before the survey continued.
6/10/2014 7:16:11 AM
Tbayvoter says:
"Coun. Aldo Ruberto said the survey was done to prove to "naysayers" that there is support for an event centre in the city." Listen... No one has Ever claimed there wasn't support... But Aldo took the Survey results and is trying to say 61% Strongly Support... Try again... I watched the whole thing and it was support yes.... 30 or so percent strongly support with another 30% somewhat support. Now my question is how many of those Random phone calls were Actual residents residing inside the city limits? Also less than 1% of the population of Thunder Bay is a Far cry of a Majority. I am on the Fence and so far Nothing has swayed me towards the pro side.
6/10/2014 3:55:12 AM
Ozone says:
A poll this morning by ozone pols should tax paying citizens are 100 percent against a new event centre being built on the waterfront! Any poll can be used to manipulate the truth! Have a plebiscite! There is your true democratic process BUT include the truth about the cost and long term costs to the taxpayers with the voting info.

Asking if you want a new event centre who out the facts is like asking a kid if they want ice cream. Funny how the answer is yes as I suspect this recent poll did!
6/10/2014 7:30:48 AM
Enquirer says:
"No one has Ever claimed there wasn't support"

What debate have you been watching about this, then? Every time a news article about this gets posted Henry "Mayor in Waiting" Wojak comes along to say he represents the "majority of people in Thunder Bay" who are against development of the Events Centre.

That coupled with Ray Smith's unscientific polls showing 97%+ not in favour of the Events Centre, you have two of the biggest (and most vocal) opponents of the Events Centre saying that the majority of people in Thunder Bay do not want it.

Now that there is another poll proving otherwise, of course opponents need to say such things to save face. I very much look forward to the trolls coming out to explain this one away!
6/10/2014 7:48:17 AM
Eastender says:
This poll is about as reliable as anything that tbnewswatch, or Mr. Smith or joe blow can come up with. As a matter of fact, it is probably even less reliable, since it was conducted by people who know how to manipulate information to get the results they want, regardless of the truth. The questions were veiled with suppositions and half truths. You want an honest poll? Call a plebiscite.
6/10/2014 7:20:01 PM
Enquirer says:
Oh, this is going to be too easy, but I'll play along...

I would like for you to outline how, Ray Smith's "poll" is on equal or greater methodological and statistical footing than the poll conducted here.

I am willing to steak every penny of my life's savings that any credential evaluator would put Ray's poll no where even near this poll due to methodological flaws. Ray has not even released his questions or methodology to his poll, let alone his rationale for conducting it the way he did.

Yet...I find all of there here for this poll: http://www.thunderbay.ca/Assets/City+Government/Event+Centre/docs/IPSOS+TBECC+Survey+Report.pdf

What questions were veiled by half truths? I have read the poll questions and all of them seem non-leading, not loaded, and very straight forward, free of jargon that would confuse people.

Grasp at straws as you will, but to consider any poll Ray or any online outlet has done to be on the same level as this poll is laughable.
6/10/2014 10:43:01 PM
Eastender says:
I did not say that Ray Smiths poll was on equal or greater methodological and statistical footing than the Ipsos Reid poll. What I did say is that the Ipsos Reid poll is no more reliable than that of Ray Smiths, or tbnewswatch, or Joe Blows. All of tne polls so far taken are obviously flawed for differing reasons. Some obviously unscientific, others perhaps skewing scientific methods to reflect their own biases. If this mayor was really interested in the real sentiment of the people of this city, he would have consented to have a cost free plebiscite question or two on the next election ballot. Instead, he chose to squander $47,000.00 on a poll that only vaguely reflected the outcome he wanted.
Your passion appears to have overwhelmed your ability to comprehend what I have said.
6/10/2014 11:41:21 PM
Enquirer says:
Ah, but you have made a very grave mistake, "Eastender". In the world of statistics when you use the word "reliable" you are referring to the the ability of a test to produce consistent and and stable results.

These polls are not of all equal reliability and I would be more than happy to extrapolate on that if you wish for a quick lesson?

Of course you are going to say you did not mean in that way, but if you are going to play in the world of evaluation and appraisal, you must make sure you know the game first. Validity and reliability are taught in any basic statistics/research methods class.

Can you point out what about the Ipsos-Reid poll is flawed? I am failing to find critical flaws of a statistical or methodological nature.

I am truly anxious to see what your reply is!

I hate to see the pot call the kettle black...but...is it truly me whose passion has overwhelmed their ability to comprehend replies correctly?
6/11/2014 12:07:30 AM
Eastender says:
Your verbocity exceeds your capacity to make a succinct point.
6/11/2014 10:50:45 AM
Eastender says:
"Would you support the building of a multiplex at its proposed waterfront site, with only street parking, and with yet undetermined tax increases to your property." Is the question that should have been asked. As it stands, the claimed results of support are invalid and not in any way indicative of anything near majority support.
6/10/2014 2:24:34 AM
eventscentre says:
You've just seen your proof. However, you still believe the 95 percent naysay of your buddy. You need a reality check-this project goes forward and the city will thrive
6/10/2014 6:55:53 AM
ou812 says:
And why are they invalid? Just because you didn't get the result you wanted Eastender?

Also, again with the parking! Um there is a parkade 2 blocks from the site, parking at the marina, numerous private lots, and undoubtedly more once this Event Centre becomes a reality. PARKING IS NOT AN ISSUE!

Lastly, I was just downtown on Saturday night. We watched the hockey game at Ondeck (packed), walked to The Foundary and saw Flipper Flanagan (packed), walked to the Office (too packed couldn't get in), and finally ended up at Black Pirates Pub and was pleasantly surprised to see a Ozzy tribute band that was pretty darn good. Point is, the Event Centre is going in the only place it should be... Downtown PA. The potential is unlimited.
6/10/2014 9:52:04 AM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
It would be interesting to know how many of the people polled have previously responded to any Ipsos Reid polls on Thunder Bay.
"The naysayers sometimes cost us money in the longrun," he said. "It's very frustrating sometimes. I suspect that the naysayers wouldn't cost the residents as much money as people like this councillor who has no problems spending other peoples money regardless of ROI...
6/10/2014 9:57:07 AM
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