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2014-07-17 at 16:41

Parking search elicits strong opinions from event centre opponents, proponents alike

Citizens for a Waterfront Event Centre member John Susin.
Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com
Citizens for a Waterfront Event Centre member John Susin.
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By Jamie Smith, tbnewswatch.com

THUNDER BAY -- Depending on who you ask, the city’s plan to purchase property for parking in the north core is either “disgusting” move or a sign of “progress.”

The city has been making offers to landowners in the Tupper and Camelot Streets area between Court and Cumberland Streets to buy or enter lease agreements for land that could provide up to 300 parking spots.

Concerned Taxpayers of Thunder Bay chair Ray Smith said the plan is outrageous given that the proposed event centre isn't even approved yet. Smith said there have been cost overruns on the feasibility study and added that this recent development supports the group's familiar claim that most people think the project is in the wrong location or not needed.

"We find it alarming, disgusting and a real slap in the face for the people of Thunder Bay," he said. "This is unaffordable right now and not needed."

But Citizens for a Waterfront Event Centre member John Susin said the city's plan has been known for months and is a matter of due diligence regardless of whether or not the event centre goes ahead.

"It's called progress. We knew about it. We got excited about it because there are a lot of derelict properties there that could come down," he said.

He said that people have complained about the lack of parking downtown, but are now complaining that the city is looking for options.

"You're not going to keep everybody happy," he said.


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Comments

We've improved our comment system.
sunnyside says:
Then why wasn t the same done around the fort william gardens over the years. Parking was difficult depending on the function. However why bother commenting ... this administration is running the ship so why bother having a mayor and council ..
7/17/2014 5:14:29 PM
Watchmaker says:
Most likely because every time the subject of closing the Gardens and building a modern facility in the 30 years I have lived in Thunder Bay the concept has been shot down by backwards thinking cane shakers and buried by the "Fort William has to have what Port Arthur has and Port Arthur has to have what Fort William has" mindset that dominated the local political scene for so long.

Refreshingly, City administration is moving past the "north south thing" and creating two cores serving two functions - administration and entertainment.

Move on people - the Gardens should have been torn down 20 years ago and the entertainment core is where the event centre belongs.

Look forward, not back.
7/17/2014 5:31:21 PM
ring of fire dude says:
It's a good thing the City has the crime problem solved , so go ahead , blow your budgets on real estate . I just hope for Councils sake there are no conflicts of interest with who owns these sites .
7/17/2014 5:16:55 PM
Eastender says:
So now the city is admitting that parking as it is, is inadequate. It always was inadequate, right from day one of the conception of this idea. What happened to the idea of getting some exercise and walking, as all the hair shirt advocates have been proposing that we fat unfit TBayers should do. Who is crying about parking now? Just scrap the whole idea, because its not about parking, or location any way. Its about affordability. We simply cany afford it. Industry is continually closing down in Welfare Bay. All this welfare dome will be good for is maybe a yodelling contest, because there will be a great echo in the great emptiness.
7/17/2014 5:18:03 PM
fastball says:
Show me where anyone in the city admitted that parking was "inadequate".
Just because you're offering to buy up affordable property and turn it into parking spots isn't an admission of anything. It's more of a concession than anything else. It's also smart business. Lots of people here have whined ENDLESSLY (frankly, to the point of nausea) about the dearth of parking - and how we're all going to have to walk from County Park Mall to the waterfront, uphill both ways in 100 below weather.
Now the city, in an effort to address those perceived needs, decides to see if there's something available that could be used for parking - and somehow that's reason to ridicule Administration? I would have thought that effort would have been met with, at the very least, some grumpy nods of grudging approval. But to lambaste them for trying to address an issue that seems to be near and dear to so many hearts - well, that's pretty cold...but typical.
Stay classy, TBay...stay classy.
7/17/2014 6:46:52 PM
Eastender says:
They dont need to say it. Actions speak louder than words!
7/18/2014 11:50:24 AM
spazz says:
Even if the event center is never built the city can make money off a parking lot there. Anyone who works in the gov. building on Red River can attest to the headache of finding a parking spot for the day (before everyone gets indignant the emphasis for this post is on full day parking not evening event parking). A new lot with full day parking rates would go over well there.
7/18/2014 10:47:57 AM
eventscentre says:
First the retro sixties Lakehead lovelies complain that there is no parking, then they complain that there is GOING TO BE parking. I'm going to scratch my head over this one until I'm as bald as a baby's bottom....
7/17/2014 5:35:29 PM
signman says:
Council and administration have lost the trust of most city taxpayers due to the way they have handled this issue.

Denying the citizens a direct vote in the form of a PLEBISCITE for fear of not getting their own way does not sit well with the majority of taxpayers.

Conducting a survey with mulitiple choice answers that can be interpreted many differnet ways does not sit well with most city residents.

All 82,000 eleigible voters need a say in the form of a PLEBISCITE.

It is not surprising the city is looking for more parking. All the parking spots at the Water Street Bus terminal site will be lost if the Arena or Multiplex is built there. (125spots)

More parking is needed around the Fort William Gardens and that is where the city should concentrate its search as the building is good for another 20-25 years.

We believe the citizens who live here know what they want and contrary to what some councillors have said are capable of making an informed decision.
PLEBISCITE!
7/17/2014 5:51:26 PM
Enquirer says:
Ray! So good to see you on here again. I was getting concerned with your persistent ignoring of me that you had left TBNewswatch!

I'll have to ask again in case you did not see my past 2 requests for it. Can we all please have a look at your "data" you collected from your "polls" to verify a few things?

I'll repeat myself again, as I see here you claim once again that the majority of people demand a plebiscite (your 2nd paragraph): If you believe your data is reliable and accurate, you should have no problem submitting all data collection, analysis, and reporting tools you used to a verified program evaluator accredited by the Canadian Evaluation Society (CES). I can surely make this happen being accredited myself.

What do you have to be afraid of? Wait, let me give you a dose of that conspiracy theorist you give us: WHAT'S Smith got to hide?! First he CLAIMS he ran SCIENTIFIC polls, but is backing out on showing us the finer details?!?! This stinks to HIGH heaven! CONSPIRACY it is!
7/17/2014 8:53:12 PM
Eastender says:
Ray does not owe you a response, or proof of his surveys scientific or otherwise. He believes as do I that enough people in this city are concerned that their taxes are too high now and will increase dramatically to suppoert this project, and its maintenance in the future.
I will ask you the same question you asked Ray. What are YOU afraid of.
Oh yeah, I know the answer to that one. There really might be a chance that a plebiscite would put an end to this whole event centre nonsense.
It is you who are afraid of the true scientific evidence for the total rejection of your pet project. A plebiscite would prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what the public sentiment is toward this fiasco.
There is a conspiracy, it is obvious to any one who has any common sense, and no hidden agenda. Whats yours?
7/18/2014 2:04:00 AM
Enquirer says:
I'm actually wondering if your response is satire or not. Oh where to begin...

Of course Ray owes me and the public a response, as he constantly claims he speaks for the majority of us. The irony being that Ray continuously bashes Hobbs for ignoring the public, yet here I am, a citizen trying to get involved and Ray seemingly goes quiet. How can he claim to be representative when he won't answer the public? The price you pay being the head of an organization is that you must respond to questions about your organization's claims.

I am concerned about the disinformation Ray spreads and he has a chance to prove his data's worth, yet won't do it? Yet, you claim I am afraid? Someone who requests concrete data and validation is afraid by your standards, so I suppose that means Ray really is afraid as he wants a plebiscite. See the straws your argument grabs for?

Ray is running scared because he knows any evaluator worth their salt would merely laugh at the "polls" he has conducted.
7/18/2014 12:39:33 PM
common cents says:
We know who Ray is, Who are you?

If you'd like do do a poll on location?

Do it youtube, with 1 Rep. for 1 against.

sound good?
7/18/2014 5:51:29 PM
Enquirer says:
I am unsure what my identity would have to do with Ray's flawed polling solutions. Can you elaborate please, explaining why this is critical?

If you are suggesting I do a poll as well, here are the problems with that:

1.) I do not have the resources companies like Ipsos Reid do to properly conduct a large scale assessment of community position. There is a reason why one man alone cannot accurately achieve this.

2.) Do it youtube? I think you mean record it and upload it, as you cannot steam live on youtube. I am unsure what this would achieve? Please elaborate further.

3.) 1 rep. for 1 against - This goes against basic fundamental data collection ethics. Those doing any type of data collection must remain unbiased and neutral in all facets. I know what you are trying to get at here, but you unfortunately would be violating the basic fundamentals of data collection in having a potential confounder.
7/19/2014 12:07:29 PM
Eastender says:
If you talk to a thousand people, and 60% agree with you, then you have reason to believe that this is representative of a population of 100,000. You dont need to justify it to someone trolling on a public website. Ray is calling for a plebiscite which has nothing to do with polls, and everything to do with democratic process.
This is not an issue about polls.
Heres why. Ask someone if tney would like to see an event centre built and the majority will say yes. Ask the same question with the qualifier, "financed with increased property taxes", and see if you get the same results. So you know what you can do with a lot of polls. They are mostly irrelevent.
But when a candidate runs on a promise to have a plebiscite for major expenses like this, then does a 180, you have every right to be suspicious of the democratic process being abused, and a plebiscite on those overblown expenses becomes absolutely necessary. An honest mayor would hold a plebiscite. There the truth lies.
7/19/2014 12:12:08 AM
Enquirer says:
You are completely wrong. Merely because one speaks with one thousand people and you have 60% agreement, you have done no where near the due diligence to ensure proper data collection:

1.) Face-to-face interview can often times lead to the bias of reactivity (look it up).

2.) Open ended surveying allows too much room for inconsistent methodology.

3.) Ordering, wording, etc all play a role in this, which we of course would need to see.

Polls have everything to do with this, as Ray is using his "polls" as evidence of public wishes; this entire situation would be different if he weren't. As I say, Ray is running scared because he knows his polls are flawed.

Properly conducted and analyzed polls are excellent measures of various things; however, conduct one like Ray and you will have skewed data.

When a citizen heads up a group claiming to speak for the majority, then won't answer that majority, that's incompetence. An honest chairman would release his data. There the truth lies.
7/19/2014 12:14:39 PM
Eastender says:
Enquirer, you are one of those people that can go on ad nauseum about the technicalities of building a house, but cannot actually build one. It takes more than a display of technical knowledge to come to a reasonable conclusion. It takes good old common horse sense and even intuition. You ignored my comment that this is not about polls per se. It is about the application of democracy and honesty in this municipal government, which is being seen as pretty much non existent. Polls shmolls!
Polls are tools, rays may be unscientific, but that poll by Ipsos Reid was slanted to produce a false result. Like a ruler that is out by a fraction of an inch, it is of no use whatsoever, and this administration wasted 47,000 dollars on it, just fancy footwork on a rickety stool thats about to topple. You can spout your vast knowledge about the technicalities of accurate polls but, Rays polls, are based on sincerity, while Hobbs and Commisso's are entirely suspect of a hidden agenda.
7/20/2014 12:38:05 PM
Enquirer says:
I am willing to put my skills in data collection, analysis, and reporting up against Ray's any day. If he is willing to accept this challenge, I'll set it up. I have the technical know how and the tools in my toolbox that Ray lacks to "build a house". Ray pretends to do what others are certified to do. End of story.

I honestly chuckled at your logic that all not takes is common sense to come to a conclusion. I ask, if Hobbs said he used common sense and intuition to go ahead with the events centre, what would your response be? I can even answer that for you.

Sincerity? Oh my. Is that the argument you use now? I forget the training session in data analysis where they taught us that. It is getting truly pathetic when that is now a cornerstone of your argument. I have a feeling more than just myself would find Ray being disingenuous here.

Ipsos Reid's poll was a scientifically valid measure of community support, Ray's wasn't even in the same park. As I said, he is just running scared.
7/21/2014 12:04:13 PM
Joey_J says:
Sign Guy Ray,

Like I have said previously, your plebiscite is file your papers to run for Mayor. You believe there are more people that "think" like you and are against the Centre. Go head to head with Hobbs: your plan of extending the Gardens 20 years vs his replacement plan if feasible. What are you waiting for? File your papers.
7/18/2014 9:45:07 AM
Eastender says:
How I wish someone like Ray would run for mayor. I can understand his reluctance to run for public office. You have to have the hide of an armadillo, and be able to take a lot of abuse. Not everyone is cut out for it. How about you run?
7/18/2014 11:57:24 AM
Joey_J says:
Why run? I like what Mayor Hobbs is doing. I am not the squeaky wheel fighting the idea of progress, the idea of doing due diligence.

Besides, I have a busy life, busy community involvement in areas that I enjoy and I job with progressive responsibility. I don't have time to sit at run down, malls of the past (AKA the FW Gardens of shopping centres) and claim I am speaking for the majority.
7/18/2014 11:23:31 PM
Enquirer says:
Joey_J, that is the most sensible suggestion anyone has had around here recently....which is why you should be banned.

Logical suggestions aren't welcomed around these parts, don't you know that?

Gut feelings, irrational fears, and incessant complaining is what rules the roost around here, buddy. That fancy book learnin' stuff you've probably done is of no help here!

Run for mayor?! Let the people decide if his platform is worthy?! ACTUALLY LETTING THE PUBLIC DECIDE ON THE ISSUE LIKE HE SUGGESTS?!!! Wow, look at Mayor Crazy over here and his wacky suggestions!

Leith, ban this guy ASAP. Not just for the regular members and guy with 50 accounts here, but to help save himself...suggestions like these only lead to things getting done. That isn't the Thunder Bay way I've known all these years.
7/18/2014 12:44:51 PM
tiredofthebs says:
Explain to me how the FW Gardens is good for another 20-25 years. Have you ever stepped foot in that place? It is by far the worst 3000 seat hockey venue I've ever been to. The reason more people don't go is because on an average night with 1500-2500 fans, it is a complete nightmare to move anywhere, buy anything or even enjoy a game. That is the #1 reason the "average" fan does not return and attendance does not grow.
The building interior is esthetically displeasing, entrance and hallways are small and cramped. So please explain to me how its still good.
The ice surface generally sucks. The scoreboard is older than Jesus and the advertising looks terrible. Why? because it was designed 70 years ago.
There is nowhere nearby to walk to after to meet friends or go for a drink. The neighbourhood is not exactly the nicest AND FINALLY...parking is the same if not worse off than the proposed new site.
So please tell me in your expert opinion, how is the gardens good for 20-25 more years.
7/22/2014 2:49:04 PM
thunderbaycouncel says:
THUNDER BAY CITY COUNCEL IS A JOKE! WHY IS THIS CONTINUING WHEN HEALTH CARE IS AND SHOULD BE THE #1 PRIORITY! if they would put as much time into the gridlock situation which has gone to parliment in Ottawa already maybe they wouldn't be as hated as they are now. pathetic and disgusting. Spend the 15 million it will cost to refurbish the F.W gardens. $300 million for an event center my eye! after all is said and done it will cost more than $500 million guaranteed. TBRHSC was suppose to cost no more than 300 million. They spent over double that amount, and with the poor design and area, renos are being done daily.
7/17/2014 5:56:03 PM
fastball says:
You do realize, don't you, that the city has really no control over what the Ministry of Health decides to do in regards to the hospital?
7/17/2014 9:19:04 PM
hadenough says:
Fastball, you should never let facts get in the way of a good personal rant that's slightly off topic.
7/19/2014 10:29:04 AM
Kam River says:
Someone came into talk to me today to say his friend owns one of the homes the city wants and he was told sell at this price or we will take it and you will get less and will have to pay for your own lawyer.
Does anyone know if the city can take away people home just in case them might build something and might need it.
7/17/2014 6:15:03 PM
Shane Caker says:
Ummm. Because health care is a provincial responsibility?
7/17/2014 7:04:56 PM
eventscentre says:
An anonymous person in this site says a friend of a friend 'told him'. Oh boy, it must be true then! No one told anyone that their real estate would just be taken. What is wrong with some of you?
7/17/2014 7:05:25 PM
unheard says:
not sure but that sounds like extortion I would get a lawyer
7/17/2014 7:48:54 PM
SomeGuy says:
They can't jus take your property. They can use expropriation (aka Eminent domain) though which is controlled by the Federal and Provincial governments and not the city, where they have to pay you fair market value for your property.
7/18/2014 10:11:05 AM
Watchmaker says:
And someone came in to talk to me today to say his friend owns one of the homes....

Hearsay. Dismissed. NEXT.
7/18/2014 1:21:35 PM
common cents says:
LOL

WRONG LOCATION!
7/17/2014 6:18:13 PM
ibrando says:
Next up, we should look at moving the hydro sub-station. Not because of the possible welfare dome, but, you know....a safety concern..or something. You will see Hobbs and company embark on all kinds of "due diligence" projects in an effort to keep the price under a hundred million. How stupid do you think the people you work for are Hobbs?
7/17/2014 6:50:45 PM
Rob20 says:
John Susin will say whatever he needs to to get what he wants. People aren't angry that the city is looking for parking alternatives downtown, people are angry that we've been lied to that parking is perfectly fine down there right up until two days ago when suddenly it's revealed that the city is looking to add parking because it obviously is inadequate. It just goes to further illustrate how are the mayor and city council constantly lie to the taxpayers and don't give us the full details or full story of anything going on in the city. Personally I would not trust the mayor nor any of the members of city Council any further than I could throw them. They have been nothing but two-faced and dishonest about this whole thing from the get-go.
7/17/2014 7:11:52 PM
Joey_J says:
Do people actually think giant parking lots are the answer? Go to Intercity on December 23rd and try and get out of there in a timely manner
7/18/2014 9:47:47 AM
orig junkyarddog says:
Yes it's called The Expropriations Actocument Corporate Policy Policy No. 09-04-06 Effective Date: 10/15/1996 POLICY STATEMENT: It is the policy of the Corporation of the City of Thunder Bay to, where necessary, forcibly acquire lands required by the municipality, pursuant to guidelines provided by The Expropriations Act. PURPOSE: To establish a procedure for expropriation of lands. PROVISIONS Expropriation is avoided, if at all possible. Expropriation procedures shall be initiated when the City is unable to negotiate a purchase of property required for a municipal purpose and after Council approval. Real property is acquired at market value, in accordance with accepted real estate practices or at less than market value, provided no conditions exist which would result in the actual cost of the property exceeding market value. If the purchase price of the property is unreasonable, the City has the right of expropriation. The entire expropriation procedure is set out in The Expropriations Act, and the procedure is executed by the City Solicitor, with REALTY SERVICES providing information, services and the processing of documents that are required. REFERENCE: REALTY SERVICES PROCEDURAL MANUAL Approved By: Date: Replacing/Amending: Originating Department: Corporate Services Contact: Manager - Realty Services Departmental Procedures Manual: Yes Affected Departments: City Solicitor
7/17/2014 8:59:01 PM
orig junkyarddog says:
Kam Rive Sorry I couldn't add the following link to the The Expropriations Act http://ctbpub.thunderbay.ca/ctbapps/ctb_p&p.nsf/626e6035eadbb4cd85256499006b15a6/da1b75fe76f70ecb85256a32006a86f8?OpenDocument&ExpandSection=-1#_Section1

Doug. Powell Candidate for Mckellar Ward
7/17/2014 9:08:40 PM
bluebear1985 says:
I don't get it. First people complain that there's no parking by the waterfront, now they're doing it because there will be parking. Make up your minds, people! We're not going to be able to keep everyone happy all the time. All I know is that this city will never be able to get out of the dark ages if this event centre doesn't go ahead. You have to let city council do their job if we want to get anywhere. Enough with all the name calling and the finger pointing already. It is time to move forward.
7/17/2014 11:12:41 PM
hotchoc says:
There have been a great deal of crime stories in our media lately. Most we are not allowed to comment on.

We keep hearing that parking is not a problem at the Marina area.

Yet it appears that the number one issue being dealt with by the city is to address the parking problems that will exist when the city builds a white elephant at the Marina, on top of the many mistakes they have already made at the Marina. That is the priority, not crime.

If anyone can go to the Marina and point out where 65 million went, please do so including almost 30 million of City Taxpayer money. 30 million of our money for a skatepad, skateboard, a couple of buildings some sidewalks and two bent hockey sticks. 30 million.

And these same people want us to blindly accept that this project will be great, and on budget. I am shocked that some people are so desperate that they will pay anything, accept any story, just to see something built there.
7/17/2014 11:19:28 PM
fairlane says:
Ray, I said it before. People like you whined about the Community Auditorium in the 80's. It was expensive then. It went over budget and needed serious repairs over the years. But can you imagine our city without it?

That's what our kids will be saying down the road once this is built.

Parking? Seems to me every major centre I've been too there hasn't been many parking lots nearby. We've all had to walk a bit. Deal with it.
7/18/2014 12:25:44 AM
dan dan says:
First the seniors group whined that there was no parking. Now they are whining that parking is being created!
7/18/2014 1:50:00 AM
patti says:
The drama from some of the posters is simply amazing.

So it's freezing cold or it's too hot, blah, blah, blah .... when you attended an event at the gardens WHAT DID YOU DO ?? WHAT WOULD YOU DO AT ANY OTHER EVENT ACROSS THE GLOBE ??

If you are incapable of walking ~ get dropped off at the entrance, PROBLEM SOLVED!!!
7/18/2014 9:40:19 AM
alexa says:
I don't know Ray Smith at all but judging by his comments regarding the Event Center and the Gardens, I can guess with much certainty that he lives on the south side of the city. He likes to say he is concerned about tax payers but in end his comments often say " people think the project is in the wrong location or not needed. " unfortunately the northside getting more than southside mentality is still wide spread.
7/18/2014 10:49:48 AM
Jon Powers says:
John@OTB:

Mr. John Susin:
Your the Opportunity Thunder Bay President and founder.

You now founded yet another committee in your pro-Business Wellfare plan.

Your group did say earlier this year that N-Side had no parking woes.

Why have you changed your mind?

When are we going to find out who at the "City" O k'd your groups use of city propperty for your rally in May.

WebMaster@tbnewswatch.com:

Why did'nt you post my posts from last night?

Great Story!
tbnewswatch.com
7/18/2014 1:31:01 PM
glass half full says:
At the end of the day, It really makes no difference what any one group (pro or con) event center has to say.

We live in a city that has a council and administration who simply does what they want when they choose.

This event center is going to happen and money will be wasted, this is a fact of living here.

Both sides need to stop! Admin had tunnel vision.

Embrace the new building and higher tax rates people.
7/18/2014 1:39:11 PM
Roadrager says:
Like many big cities in Canada, those who are averse to change usually find themselves moving on to smaller communities in the outlying areas. The last I checked Ignace, Nipigon, Longlac, Geraldton, Terrace Bay, Schreiber, etc... are all places where you can live without worrying about 'parking'.

Get real Thunder Bay. For years our council has spent money fruitlessly while we have nothing to show for it. We finally have decision makers in this city who know it's time we move forward in order to survive, and we should thankful that they're working diligently to make this happen.

As like my commute on the expressway every morning goes, if you can't keep up, get out of the way.
7/18/2014 1:54:26 PM
The Beaver..... says:
fairlane
The problems with this entire undertaking Parking as well as overall cost could have been greatly reduced if a more suitable location had been picked in the first place..
like INOVA
7/18/2014 1:55:51 PM
fastball says:
You still don't get it, do you?
The event centre is part of a North Side revitalization plan that's been in the city's strategic plan for a decade or so now. The South Side gets the administrative stuff - like City Hall and the courthouse and social services, and the North Side was the tourist/entertainment area. This event centre is supposed to be a supporting piece in that endeavour.
It's not just about PARKING, for god's sake. So what, you get a giant parking lot that sits vacant and contributes NOTHING other than being used on Event Night. The current parking spots in the North Side also support shopping and business during the day - and will support dining and entertainment during the night. And yes, Virginia - hopefully there will be more parking spots created so we aren't forced to endure more than a 3-4 minute walk to the car.
Try to wrap your brain around the concept of parking being more than a 4 acre chunk of pavement that sits empty more than 90 percent of the time.
7/19/2014 3:12:43 PM
Eastender says:
Well if the parking lot is going to be empty 90% of the time, then so will the Event Centre. If thats true, then, do we even need to build one? Sort of an oxymoron, eh?
7/20/2014 12:45:54 PM
signman says:

Referring to the Water St. Bus Terminal Site Mr Commisso stated

" If we can do it without having to acquire more parking" said Commisso.

northernontariobusiness.com 4/1/12

In 20 years or so will when the city will need a new multiplex let's remember his comments.
7/18/2014 2:26:31 PM
signman says:
Mayor Hobb's quote referring to the Multiplex.

" I think that should go to a PLEBISCITE" he said, adding the electorate should vote on any big-ticket items.

TBTNewswatch Sept.23 2010.
7/18/2014 3:22:30 PM
fastball says:
Yes, thanks for making your point for the thousandth time, Ray.
It's not like anyone forgot about your plebiscite raison d'etre.
7/18/2014 4:13:38 PM
Livinin2daynotY1K says:
The best part of this thread is it suddenly ends at 3:22pm. Could it be that everyone that posted on this (Ray and his one friend making up the "majority" of Thunder Bay) left work to go home? Some employer isn't getting full value, lol.
7/18/2014 6:55:08 PM
unheard says:
just go get a second mortgage
dont think they can give you less then you owe on it
7/18/2014 10:21:31 PM
signman says:
The city wants to build a glorified hockey rink on top of a city parking lot at the Water Street Bus Terminal site that presently has 127 parking spots.

Now the city wants to buy properties to build a parking lot.

Also the city would be faced with dismantling and removing the hydro sub station and the bus depot at an enormous cost to city taxpayers. Due to the contamination the final cost is anyone's guess.

It is not hard to understand why the majority of taxpayers, who have just received their tax bills have great concerns over this mismanagemnet of public funds and demand a PLEBISCITE as promised by Mayor Hobbs.


7/19/2014 7:39:46 AM
hadenough says:
More fear mongering based on your opinion.

You have your plebiscite, it's this falls election. Clearly the event centre will be an election issue and if you're correct in your statement "that the majority of taxpayers are against" the project, then the results of the election will show that.

I find that your position against this project more than a little disingenuous considering your past stance that it was a great project if it was placed at Inova Park. Sour grapes or are you just bored since your FOMP defeat?
7/19/2014 10:42:23 AM
fastball says:
@signman - for someone who seemingly lives his life here, you obviously don't actually READ replies, do you?

Leith said this in regards to the substation..."The cost to move the hydro station is in the event centre budget and it's been addressed here several times. The move would be made a few years ahead of the original plan, but the station will be moved with or without an event centre."
Is there something vague about this FACT? Or did you not catch it because you are deafened by the sound of your very loud (albeit single-note) drum beat?
Just because something CURRENTLY has x number of parking spots - doesn't mean it will ALWAYS have the same number of spots. At this point, I would suggest that you wrap your brain around that concept.
7/19/2014 10:50:14 AM
Eastender says:
Industries in this city are rapidly closing down , or soon will pull up stakes and move to Mexico ( Ihope not), replacing those jobs? Minimum wage jobs! How is that going to support a multiplex with $150.00 attendance prices to concerts. Multiplexes, Event Centres, Hockey Rinks? Call them what you want, but they are not an industry that creates wealth, they are a luxury that results from tne creation of wealth.
First you create the wealth, then you wallow in its rewards, not the other way around.
7/19/2014 9:23:55 AM
dan dan says:
Well, hey, let's DON'T build an events centre, then, ensuring that all of our youth leave and no corporate interests look towards Northwestern Ontario.

It may be a difficult road, but it's one we either have to travel or fold up shop completely.
7/20/2014 7:12:42 PM
Royalflush says:
Heres some facts DanDan. An event centre will absolutely NOT, bring prosperity and wealth to this city. Corporations and industry do not, I repeat, do not come to a community because there is an event centre. Youth do NOT stay in a community because there is an event centre, they stay in a community because there are good paying jobs. An event centre will only result in a handful of mi imum wage jobs, the employees of which will not be able to afford to buy concert or hockey tickets. There is not a sufficient population within T.Bay to support this arena. People will not drive hundreds of miles in dangerous winter weather to come here. The same people (at most, and at the best of times, about 2700+,-) who attend sport events now, will be the same ones comming to a 5700 seat half empty arena. The negative impact of this will be skyrocketing tax increases, and negligence of other important areas of municipal obligations. You need to get your head out of the sand, and see the sun.
7/21/2014 11:21:06 AM
lori says:
to those who support this project. Please let me know why this project will make t.bay prosper.

And for the moment, lets assume you are correct.

Then let's spend even more and really take off. Does that make sense.

This project is not bullet proof. It is premised on a bunch of assumptions that could just as easily go the wrong way.

We could only draw 3000 a game. Only a few more shows, Only a few conventions.

And then what.

We will be left with a large building that is used sporadically and operates at a huge loss.
Why is it that people are so quick to criticize other levels of gov't as inefficient and will blindly accept this project as the promised land.
These people gave us Horizon Wind Farm
They wasted millions upon millions at Marina Park.
Yet we should believe them on this project.
We are diving into the lake and we don't know the depth of the water. When you dive in blind, very bad things can happen. This is not progress, it is a pipe dream
7/20/2014 8:17:56 PM
Whodo says:
The City's hired consultants first remarks were a parkade would be needed to be built in the downtown core if that was to be the ARENA's location. This remark was soon reversed.... He was soon reigned in by Mr Commisso and told to hush about any need for extra parking. They started drawing maps with circles radiating from proposed ARENA telling us we had abundant existing parking ...telling us NO need for any extra parking. Then they incorporate 200 parking spots under the ARENA ....then they take it away.....???
Everything this City does is orchestrated, we have a 'Spin Dept' that works very hard and WE pay very well to BS US continually.

My fear is we will see more of OUR precious Marina Park turned into a metered parking lot.
We have yet to see and feel the effect of what OUR Park will be like when 107? Condo dwellers move in! Never mind the congestion of the PROPOSED HoTEL.
7/21/2014 9:29:59 AM
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