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2013-02-13 at 16:10

Mayor wants cost of municipal policing compared to OPP services

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
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THUNDER BAY -- The city’s mayor wants to know how the cost of the municipal police force compares to its provincial counterpart.

Keith Hobbs put the idea of cost comparing the services of the OPP with the Thunder Bay Police Service forward at Tuesday night’s budget discussion. He referenced comments from the OPP commissioner Chris Lewis, who had previously said he had the cheapest game in town.

The commissioner was speaking about small towns moving away from maintaining their own local police force and instead adopting the OPP’s services. The Toronto Sun reported last December that Lewis was not encouraging it, but if municipalities want to cost compare he’d be open to the idea.

Hobbs believes the city could find savings of up to $5 million on the police budget.

“It’s something that I’m interested in,” Hobbs said following the meeting.

“Thunder Bay police do a great job and that’s my old stomping ground. With police budgets and emergency services budgets going through the roof across the province and the country, we have to start looking at the way we deliver services.

“Just for my own information, I would like to see what the OPP costing would come in at. Not to say that we would have the OPP policing Thunder Bay, but we have to look at all avenues.”

The emergency services budget, which includes police, fire and EMS, all showed an increase from last year.

The police came in at $35.2 million, which is a 3.4 per cent boost over last year.

During the meeting, police chief J.P. Levesque said he didn’t have any hard figures to present, but found it difficult to believe doing that would save the city $5 million.

“This city requires excellent police officers and equipment,” Levesque told council. “Ninety-five per cent of our budget is wages. (The OPP’s) wages are higher than ours are. If Commissioner Lewis made that comment, I haven’t heard it actually; if he did, I’m not sure if he’s referring to the ability to cut services to get down to that level or not. I don’t know.”

Levesque said it would have to be a conversation with the OPP and would be considered a political decision and not one of the chief of police.

Westfort Coun. Joe Virdiramo, who is also the chair of the Thunder Bay Police Services Board, added that the board would have to vote on the issue. 

The Canadian Press
© The Canadian Press, 2013
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Comments

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Tbay99 says:
It's simple really, cut police salaries! If they don't like it then they can quit, welcome them to life in the private sector to open their eyes to how good they got it now.
2/13/2013 4:21:04 PM
tbayfinn says:
Yeah that's it, we want all the rookie cops in Thunder Bay so they can leave after a few years to find better salaries elsewhere.... if you can't tell I'm being sarcastic Tbay99....
2/13/2013 5:10:13 PM
Tbay99 says:
It's that paranoid mentality that keeps the public sectors stranglehold on taxpayers. You really think if they were to cut their salary even slightly they would all quit? Get real.
2/13/2013 6:31:21 PM
stopthehandouts says:
The city needs its own service period, Chief Levesque summed it up nicely. The OPP have already swolled up Kenora and more recently Wawa...loss of pride IMO to save a couple bucks.
2/13/2013 4:37:59 PM
Gord says:
This isn't a bottom line price issue. We do not want control of our policing, both in terms of cost increases and scheduling to be out of our hands. Ask the people in Kenora how well that worked for them. After the initial low ball cost offered by the OPP, costs have risen and local control over policing has dropped
2/13/2013 5:06:14 PM
random says:
An 8.5-per-cent pay hike for the Ontario Provincial Police in 2014 is proof the Liberal government’s wage freeze for one million public sector workers is meaningless, the Opposition has charged.

-From the Globe and Mail May 2011

A first class OPP constable currently earns $83,483 a year, and a pay hike of about 8.5% would raise that to just under $90,600, not including O/T etc. Then comes the next round of contract negotiations.

Add to that benefits for life, no police chief to face the public etc, I'd think the city police would jump on that.

Good call Mayor!!

While you are at it, cost out the area volunteer firefighters to take over firefighting for the city...think the cost savings could be about $20 mill or so, and they would face the same work load that they are used to (not a jab at volunteer firefighters...they work hard for nadda).
2/13/2013 5:13:56 PM
SomeGuy says:
Really a volunteer firefighter service? Our city is too large to solely rely on volunteers, why not volunteer paramedics also since they cost a lot.

So a volunteer firefighter works hard but a paid one doesn't just because the volunteer one does it for free?
2/13/2013 6:16:49 PM
random says:
You missed the sarcasim regarding the volunteer firefighters taking over. But yes, the volunteer ones do work hard, simply because they do, for no return.
As for that hermit...cost of living in the states isn't even in the same league as it is here. Your argument can be used for the firefighters too you know. Any reason you always go after the cops, and not the other high paid employees in this city? Any reason you didn't post a link for the Chicago boys in blue?
Chicago Police Salary

Chicago police salary starts off at $43,104 and increases to $55,728 after one year.
After another 18 months, the salary increases to $58,896.

There is a yearly uniform allowance of $ 1,800 and an annual duty availability allowance of $2,920.

That was tough..:whew:
Why is it when I counter your posts, I always feel like you are the unarmed guy coming to a gun fight?
2/13/2013 10:55:46 PM
SomeGuy says:
Sometimes it's hard to tell when someone is being sarcastic on this forum because some of the comments are that ludicrous.
2/14/2013 9:15:04 PM
Don't believe the gossip says:
Instead of doing all this research on a police force in ANOTHER COUNTRY, why not do some research on how the volunteer fire fighters system works.

I will start you off by telling you that they actually get paid when they go active to calls or are in training. Volunteer fire fighters actually have several costs unknown to the average Joe and the costs everyone thinks we would save are not near what they are in reality.
2/16/2013 4:11:05 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Top police officer pay in Chicago...89 thou.
2/13/2013 5:32:45 PM
SomeGuy says:
Got a link supporting this? Cause if you don't I could say that Red Deer top officer pay is...65 thou.
2/13/2013 6:14:42 PM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
90% of Chicago cops make betweem 43 thou to 76 thou...sorry, but our blueboys are GROSSLY OVERPAID, especially considering the LACK OF RESULTS we get. WAY MORE DANGEROUS there too, right? RIGHT? WELL?
2/13/2013 8:46:36 PM
Don't believe the gossip says:
If you had any idea on how world and global economics work, you would understand how ignorant you are to compare our city to a city in a foreign land, with a very different non direct comparable economic systems.
2/13/2013 10:44:52 PM
SomeGuy says:
We spend $28 per year, per person more in Thunder Bay on wages compared to Chicago.

If we matched the Chicago amounts it would lead to a reduction of 2.8 million less in the police budget, or about 1.4% of the city budget.

2/14/2013 9:18:24 PM
gotcha says:
Contracting Out should always be on the table especially with public service jobs where monoply greed is rampant. But you have to be careful with the Outside Contractors too. Tax Returns and other info sensitive products processed in Pakastan? Lost control of personal property? OPP for local police? We have a saying in the Private sector = We dont trade poop for poop
2/13/2013 5:43:09 PM
Don't believe the gossip says:
Do you understand what a Monopoly is?

By getting rid of the Thunder Bay Police force and only having the OPP, well that Sir is a monopoly.

We need accountability of our city force not a situation that will put us in a communist police state type of scenario.
2/13/2013 6:30:45 PM
Glyder says:
I think we should contact Omni Consumer Products (OCP) and inquire about their Robocop line.

Tbnewswatch.com

2/13/2013 8:17:39 PM
mazda323 says:
A first class OPP constable currently earns $83,483 a year, and a pay hike of about 8.5% would raise that to just under $90,600, not including O/T etc. Then comes the next round of contract negotiations.
And a teacher, after approximately 10 years or working less than 1800 hours per year, makes about the same. I think I'd rather pay the cop, thanks!
2/13/2013 6:13:50 PM
one girl's opinion says:
But you are the same dolt that thinks that parents should stay at home and watch thier own children so why do we need teachers anyways? Of course you think we should pay the cops more you think eveyone should be home schooled and "raise their children the right way" If you are an example of "the right way" i'd rather be wrong. Get back to your seat at the coffee shop.
2/14/2013 8:27:48 AM
Tbay1 says:
Well thought out tbay99. Lots of perks in private sector
that never disclosed.

I thinking policing of community this size needs to stay in the hands of local
municipality. Last thing we need is another bureaucratic
service being run out of queens park for northern Ontario.

I think the Thunder Bay police force does an excellent job
policing this community given the violence and racial
matters that this community struggles with and definitely
not paid enough for the service they provide
2/13/2013 6:22:17 PM
Don't believe the gossip says:
Talk to anyone in the small towns that have already done this and they all say the same thing "Don't do it".

After you disband your city police and the OPP take over you are now over a barrel to what they say you WILL pay for their services. Sure it maybe cheaper up front the first few years but then you have no choice but to pay what they demand and they do increase fast. What options will we have if we start seeing that the OPP option starts costing us more and more each

The city will have no say to the operation. When the OPP want to cut costs they will cut staff and wont care if there is not enough coverage to properly do the work up here. It's happening/happened in Kenora, Wawa & Green Stone.

The city of Dryden has also looked at this, listened to the other communities and have realized it would be a mistake for the city and cost them more money down the road.

It's good to have both, having only one will be a bad idea and us at the their mercy of their bottom line.
2/13/2013 6:27:12 PM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
Hobbs has been trying to convince people that he knows all things related to policing and has never gotten over not getting the Chiefs job...just trying to put pressure on the new Chief...he should keep his nose out of policing issues...want to save money?..stop the wasteful spending!!
2/13/2013 6:33:04 PM
Mastermind says:
The OPP in costing will offer the "ability" to provide all resources necessary to the municipality. It does not mean they are at hand and they fail to mention that when they fly up the resources from southern Ontario, the bill is added to the municipality. They also cut the number of front line officers they use. If you look at Kenora, the private consultant was a former OPP officer who supported the move. Hobbs, come on. Get over the personal thing with TBPS. Herman is not there anymore.
2/13/2013 7:00:04 PM
tsb says:
If your boss cut your salary, would you stay or quit?

If your boss cut your salary, and you were the victim of constant harassment from the public, would you stay or quit?

If your boss cut your salary, thus negatively impacting your quality of life, and you were the victim of constant harassment from the public, would you stay or quit?
2/13/2013 8:11:13 PM
passlake says:
if the OPP is so much cheaper, why does Oliver-Paipoonge have a contract with the city to provide policing?
2/13/2013 11:55:34 PM
timeforchange says:
Finally a reason to consider voting for this guy.

If Hobbs is off his estimate by 70%, that still means a saving of $1.5 MILLION. This police service is constantly overbudget. Our crimes rates continue to be in the top 3 in the country and whenever an issue comes up, it is someone elses fault.

Any well run organization would welcome the challenge to prove to taxpayers that they are the best game in town. We have one of the most expenses police services in Canada, one of the most expensive fire services in Canada. When does it stop or do you want to keep paying higher and higher costs for lousy results.

Anyone knows there is fat in any gov't organization. This one is no different. Let's get at it. All they have to do is ask. If they don't want to do it, that being Westfort Joey V and his buddies, then serious questions need to be asked as to what are they afraid we will find out.
2/14/2013 12:16:56 AM
random says:
Lousy results. Hmmm.
First off, we might as well leave fire out of the conversation, because they save cats in trees and deer that fall in the ice, and everyone loves that.
Police, well, lets put a conservative estimate on things and say 75% of what they deal with involves drunks...alcoholics, alcohol abuse, burdens on society..call em what you want.
To get better results, would you suggest police sit at the LCBO and dictate who gets liquor? Set up road blocks and check every vehicle/person for illicit drugs?
timeforchange, your post was posted simply to try and come across as educated or smart..whatever...you threw a grade 9 math equation out there. Wow.
EXPLAIN the lousy results. PLEASE.
2/15/2013 11:28:20 PM
reallyppl says:
If people think the TBPS has bad service now, cutting their wage will most certainly make it better, right? The best part of this conversation is that OPP officers make more than the city officers...so why would we want to bring OPP into the city? Is not OPP getting a 14% pay hike in 2014? Big picture here people... city guy makes around $80,000 a year, they also work 10hr shifts and work shift work. Most of their shifts are at night. $80,000 a year to be away from their family, taking garbage from drunks and all the people you don't want to deal with. Is that really too much? All the people who complain should put their job on here so we can all criticize them. Just saying. If you don't like the way Thunder Bay is policed you can move out to OPP land. And when it takes 4hrs for them to get to your house let me know what's better. City police are doing a great job. Keep up the good work ladies & gents!!!
2/14/2013 12:35:50 AM
youngintbay says:
Get rid of the Thunder Bay Polis force and just have the OPP provide there service. No reason to have 2 police services.
2/14/2013 9:04:31 AM
p.o.ed taxpayer says:
somewhat ironic that people are so willing to hammer the emergency services in this community, but then have no problem with the city spending a couple of hundred million on the waterfront and an event center....most of these are projects that should be taken on by the business community...but why would they pony up their own money when this council and administration will pander to them?....cut the spending and stick to core issues...problem solved...and don't buy the argument that everyone will leave the city if we don't build all of these projects...
2/14/2013 12:06:06 PM
mazda323 says:
@ one girl's opinion: A dolt? I hardly think so, I'm educated enough that I don't have to resort to name calling in an attempt to make a point. I'm also educated enough to actually READ my previous post and nowhere did I mention home schooling. You yourself should have spent more time in school, check your spelling :) I also don't frequent coffee shops, so please don't assume you know me when you don't. You do know what happens when you "assume" don't you??
2/14/2013 12:33:44 PM
one girl's opinion says:
You hardly think so? - but your opinion counts for little with your tired old fashioned comments - you may not frequent coffee shops but you sure talk like one of those old men sitting in there solving the worlds problems - try to be part of the solution and learn how to respond to a comment where the comment is made it will help show that "educated enough" you are so proud of. And the name calling comment how many times have you mentioned the ill behaved children of this community? I just got tired of it absolutely rude!!!!
2/15/2013 8:27:42 AM
trevor99 says:
Not to put a damper on anyone's opinion here but it seems the majority really do not understand. This is not about the wage of a police officer, this is about the huge numbers of staff you will no longer need if the OPP take over.

You do not need a Chief or a deputy. You would be able to eliminate many of the civilian staff, 50% or more who become redundant because the OPP already have the work covered. Some of the upper management could be eliminated as well.

At the end of the day, you do not have less police officers on the road or cheaper police officers but you may have 60 less people working and if the average salary is even 50,000 dollars which is probably low, that is a quick 3 million. Now, is this worthwhile to look at or not.
2/15/2013 8:51:46 AM
gogreenorgohome says:
Kenora went to OPP contract and we ARE saving money. For how long in the monopoly, no one knows, but Hobbs is doing his homework! If you read the Chronicle Journal editorial and learn how municipal police are getting more % raises than any other Public Servant, you will realise the only way for municipalities NOT to gave to give more than cost of living raises (through arbitration etc.) IS by going to the OPP contract.
2/15/2013 9:35:09 AM
TBDR says:
The brain trust on these comment boards consistently try to hammer Hobbs and council over rising costs... so they propose looking at something that could save massive tax dollars... and you hammer them. You guys are hysterical...
2/15/2013 10:10:40 AM
The Badger Mountain Hermit says:
Odd, how Norfolk County ON, so huge, yet manages so well...with only about 63,000 permanent residents. NOT ONE DIRT ROAD! Something is VERY WRONG, up in Baie de Tonnere.
2/15/2013 2:21:20 PM
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