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2011-05-16 at 21:48

Wind resistance

By Jeff Labine, tbnewswatch.com
Opponents of Horizon Wind Inc.’s wind farm plans have a message for Ontario’s premier  and the area’s two MPPs – no Liberals, no turbines.

More than 200 people attended a Wind Concerns Ontario rally at the Nor’Wester Hotel Monday night. Rally organizers used the demonstration as a chance to give area residents more information on Horizon’s planned development.

The rally was held a day before Horizon is scheduled to hold a pair of open houses on May 17 and 18, as required under the REA application process.

John Laforet, president of Wind Concerns Ontario, encouraged those in attendance  to fight against the company’s plans . He then led the crowd in a chant against Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty.

"Why don’t we send Dalton McGuinty a message – no Liberals, no turbines," Laforet said. "We want to send a message to the MPPs that they will be accountable in the fall if this project is still on the table when the ballots are passed around on election day.

“I think what they will have to decide is, do they like being members of provincial parliament or are they going to toe the party line."

If renewable energy becomes a major ballot box issue during the upcoming provincial campaign, protesters speculate that Thunder Bay’s two Liberal MPPs will fail in their re-election bids. Because of that, Laforet said he believes Liberal MPPs need to distance themselves from their party’s position.

"Those lands have a legacy of being protected," he said. “There’s a hundred years of water shed protection and there’s very strict rules about tree cutting. These guys have been given a free pass to clear cut and blast 150 acres of land up there."

Mike Payne, co-chairman of the Nor’Wester Mountain Escarpment Protection Committee, said he wanted to ensure the public was informed if they attended the public consultations held by Horizon Wind.

"Chances are you aren’t going to get any answers (at the open house)," Payne said. "None of the open houses (Horizon Wind) has had so far have answered any questions that we have had. They have dodged around the answers. Hopefully, this will give people some ideas on what’s going on."

City council voted 8-4 in favour of an amended agreement with Horizon Wind in April. It was a deal that saw two turbines moved farther away from residential areas. Payne said the approval is only one of many steps before the project is approved.

The group’s next big fight is with the province, he added.

Until then, the group will continue to lobby to have more of the proposed turbines moved to different areas.

"They moved some of them back but those were just the ones closest to the ski hills," he said. "They moved them back and put them in environmentally sensitive areas."
|
Mike Parisien has lived in the Neebing area for five years and he said what concerned him the most was the potential health issues.

"I’m concerned about the location being so close to the school," Parisien said. "There’s been worldwide studies done over the last 20 years, in terms of high power lines and the exposure to children and it doubles the rates of cancers, brain tumours, lymphomas and leukemia."

Gary Armstrong moved into the Neebing area 30 years ago for the scenic view. The retired AbitibiBowater employee said if the province approved the wind farm, it would mean that he and his wife would probably leave the city.

"The city has handled this poorly. We never really had any input into this until after the fact," Armstrong said. "I’m retired so if I can’t sleep at night because of the noise or the vibrations or I don’t want to look at them then I’ll move out of Thunder Bay."

The first Horizon Wind open house will start at 6 p.m. at the Blake Community Hall. The second will be at Fort William Country Club.


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Comments

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treesrgood says:
This project is completely for the benefit of the developer Horizon Wind and would not be happening if the City had done it's homework, had consulted its own people and weren't so cowardly as to so scared of Zwig and his lawsuit. We, the residents, must now fight to say to Horizon "We don't want you here, this is the wrong project for this land and our community- Go Away" We need the help of our MPP's to tell Toronto that this is not good for Thunder Bay.
5/17/2011 5:29:57 AM
yer joking says:
With the acurate and complete comments you have made I have to say that the windmils must be bad I did not realize all the tragedy that was caused by them. Perhaps our Federal and provincial politicians could band together for the benefit of the people and ban windmills, electricity and all other evil things. With 451 Agreements You are definately a winner and now you have my full support and that of my followers.
5/18/2011 2:50:45 PM
itshell says:
Give me a break...these are the same people crying about the cost of energy...all they are mad about is they figure they should be compensated...well listen closely people...can't you hear that WAMBULANCE coming...WAAAA, WAAAA, WAAAAA
5/17/2011 6:49:03 AM
tiredofit says:
Spoken like a true clueless individaul. Our hydro costs are skyrocketing because of these very projects.

Did you know that OPG spends several millions every month paying the US to take our excess power? Basically next time your in the States, go up to someone, hand them $.30 and say add this to your hydro bill, it's no different. So ask yourself, why is this province can subsidize the US electrical system with your hard earned cash, yet can't give you a long term break?

Waaa....waaaaa... waaa...
5/17/2011 9:33:05 AM
tiredofit says:
Here's a follow with some true numbers, and this happens A LOT in Ontario and is only going to get worse as more of these come on line:

Ontario’s beleaguered electricity ratepayers were zapped again this past weekend. Ontario ratepayers provided $4,171,090.00 to subsidize the excess production of electricity from wind. Who benefitted? Our neighbours in Quebec, Michigan, Ohio and New York benefitted with our electricity at bargain basement prices.

On April 30th Ontario’s net exports (exports minus imports) were 51,237 MW and on May 1st they were 49,018 MW.

Wind was a big component of those exports with production from industrial wind turbines on the 30th of 10,044 MW and 20,637 MW on the 1st. The average sale price of those exports on April 30th was $17.50 and on May 1st was negative (we paid them to take our excess power) $9.93.

How's that for proof? Plus on Earth Day, we spent about the same!!
5/17/2011 10:32:16 AM
yer joking says:
you know TOI I really have to call bs on that one I looked up the figures and they are nowhere near those numbers. If you contact Mr Mauro he can set yoy onthe right track and ensure that your posts demonstrate a little more accuracy and relect the facts a little more clearly. Just a little fact FYI Ontario is the only province which doesn't allow unregisterd wind powered sources.
5/18/2011 5:36:16 PM
maztec says:
tiredofit lives in a cave on the NorWesters. Do you know what is going to happen to your energy bills if we don't pursue projects like this?
5/17/2011 10:50:22 AM
tiredofit says:
It's a nice cave, 3 bedroom, only $5500 a year in property taxes and has a great view for now. No city sewage, but we get a lot of bull from City hall backing up our way, so it makes up for it. Nice narrow road for oversized trucks that my kids can dodge if they get started (they'll develop a new game out of it). It's ok, apparently we're all millionaires out here(please let my bank know, they seemed to have miss that deposit!)

The reality of it is, if the province didn't introduce this green engery act, spent a decent amount of money upgrading the existing infrastructure, perhaps then, and only then, they could look at subsidizing this industy in a fair way. The estimated income Horizon is going to earn in well over 880 million dollars!! Is that fair? Really? Billions up billions will be paid to a handful of companies (all private companies by the way). If it's such a great deal, why isn't OPG Hydro1, TBHydro doing it?
5/17/2011 11:29:13 AM
woodzee says:
I'm sorry but soon there will be no more backyards left for people to enjoy. Every time any nimby concern blooms it is viciously trampled upon. The developers certainly know, from vast experience, how to trump your cause.
5/17/2011 8:29:07 AM
hockeyskates says:
Same old. Same old. Two Hundred of the usual characters show up to protest, then they hurry over to crash Horizon's information session. However, in five months, it may not matter.

The Leader of the provincial Conservatives has indicated that if elected, the electricity subsidies required to make Wind an economically viable source of energy will be ended. Horizon will be compensated by Queens Park for their troubles no doubt, and the whole project will fade into memory.

5/17/2011 8:38:05 AM
tiredofit says:
Actually, it wasn't the same old same old, about 25% of the individauls were from other parts of town. At least Hudak has the guts to admit that this is a complete shame.

For those who doubt it, this group has grown 10 fold in the last few months and were not talking a few, were talking 100's if not thousands.

This group will fight (and win) till the bitter end, so throw all the stones and name calling you wish, we don't care, because we are the truely informed ones, something the nay saysers haven't got a clue about.
5/17/2011 9:38:19 AM
MarathonLogger says:
Hudak can and will promise anything to be elected. But remind yourselves that he's the figurehead, and more often than not, he won't be setting the true party policy. Ask mayor Hobbs how he was surprised he is only one vote at the hall. I expect after the election, we'll see a short moratorium, and it will be business as usual after 6 months of "debate", all the while, the party faithful will be fully established into their comfy patronage positions at the OPA. The conservatives are business/entrepreneur friendly, maybe they'll turf out Samsung, and pay the penalty, but you can bet there will be a so called "domestic" investor step up and take over their vacancy in the manufacturing of wind and solar components.

The official platform hasn't been released, but the gist of what i read tells me we'll be paying more in the future, probably even more than we would with locked in FIT contracts.

Hudak indicated he'd commission a trading market to set the renewable energy rates. Now most anyone that invests in mutual funds, stocks, or even buys gasoline for their car, knows that speculator's seem to have free reign in day to day manipulation. If he sets up a free market trading in energy prices, i'll be one of the first to go off the grid completely. It won't be long before the tory cronies settle in at the trough and send your hydro rates a lot higher than the 13.5 cents per kWh that wind would be locked in at for 20 years.

And some of Hudak's own crew are hardly united against the FIT program. From the Toronto Star - May 16, 2011

"Hudak’s position has hit some snags in his own party.

It has been revealed that PC MPP Frank Klees (Newmarket-Aurora) is the director of an energy company that has proposed a wind turbine project for Bruce Peninsula.

On Friday, MPP Toby Barrett (Haldimand-Norfolk-Brant) was warning local landowners with wind and solar projects to finalize their Feed-In-Tariff (FIT) contracts as soon as possible, while Mark Mullins, a former unsuccessful PC candidate from Dundas, Ont., has called Hudak “irresponsible” for attacking renewable energy."
5/17/2011 11:02:46 AM
trevor99 says:
If you are correct about the trading market for energy then we should be scared. It was the Conservatives who broke up Ontario Hydro and they promised us cheap power. The free market would drive prices down we were told. They then brought us the debt retirement charge and took that money and spent it elsewhere instead of reducing the debt. The debt actually went up after they brought in the charge to reduce the debt. Free rein on energy prices is and should be scary to everyone.
5/18/2011 6:52:39 AM
rebelking says:
trees will grow back .... fossil fuel wont
5/17/2011 9:07:42 AM
yer joking says:
Does anybody know where fossils come from?






Could South Neebing be the answer?
5/17/2011 1:24:07 PM
yer joking says:
If you wait long enough it will, it is a renewable energy source theoretically.But Not In My Back Yard it isn't.
5/18/2011 2:32:44 PM
Pandora says:
Horizon will be holding a Public Consultation Tue. and Wed. evening.

ALL the Councilors, the ones that supported this Industrial Wind Turbine Project, should all be in attendance, I especially would like to see B.Mauro and M.Gravelle, give them an opportunity to support this project. An opportunity to meet and greet their public(it's not just about ribbon cutting you know!) There is an election coming.

They can all be a witness to see just how the public gets their questions answered.

They can all feel extremely safe for I'm sure, as always, they will have over kill on security.
5/17/2011 9:15:01 AM
Papercut says:
No Liberals, No Windfarm.

That says it all.

Conservatives say they are going to STOP the madness the Liberals introduced by the"green energy act".....This is what we need. The so called green energy bill is bankrupting us all!
5/17/2011 9:45:53 AM
yer joking says:
the NDP will provide us all with the luxuries of life and make sure everyone's a winner! Just a plug for the GOOD GUYS to keep it equal.
5/18/2011 3:44:43 PM
spooner19 says:
I really hope Tim Horton's opens a store up in that area. It will give you a new fight after this one goes through.
5/17/2011 9:48:07 AM
tiredofit says:
Actually we just got a Robin's and we really like it, but thanks for trying.
5/17/2011 10:49:53 AM
myopic not foolish says:
itshell hockeyskates rebelking
You think this is such a good idea. Then doesn't Horizon answer the questions resident have? From where I come from, if you can''t give me a straight answer, I don't want you doing any development with our city. Maybe you people like to roll the dice, not me.
5/17/2011 10:09:23 AM
lori says:
Mr. Hudak did say he would rip up contracts and the like. He then backtracked and didn't tell us how much that would cost taxpayers, maybe more, but who cares. Why ask those questions. He is just promising cheap power and it is going to get him some votes from people who only care about their hydro bill.

Second, I am in no way a supporter of this project, not before, not now, not next week so lets be clear on that. Lets also be clear on how the city got us in this mess. They saw a few dollars and as treesrgood said, didn't use common sense and blindly accepted whatever report was handed to them and signed on the dotted line.

But, thirdly as for this group. Do a google search, I did. Find out who its members are. I couldn't. Find out where they get their funding from, I couldn't. Find out if the health concerns they speak of ( 100 in Ontario ) is better or worse than those who die from coal, nuclear, gas causes. Find out how many birds are killed from those sources each year.

It is pretty hard to take this group seriously with some of their "alleged science".

As I said, I am not for this project, I am not even sure if windmills are great or not, but I would have to believe they are better than man made power sources like nuclear and coal. Having said all of that, we need to decide what we want in this province.

Do we want the expense of nuclear and the long time it takes to develop and the serious safety issues that go with it.
Do we want to burn natural gas, the possible price increase attached to that and the cost of conversions.
Do we want the pollution and deaths that come with coal.
Do we want the huge expense that is coming with creating more water generated plants.

We just can't seem to decide what we want, except for one thing.

We want ready when we want, cheap power and we don't care how much it costs someone else to provide it. Just not us only we are the only taxpayer.

I have said this on this site before, 30 Billion is required over the next 20 years in Canada just to make sure the lights stay on. I don't get the sense that we care, or we are ready to do what we have to do to make this possible. That is Conference Board of Canada, not my figures.

We are prepared to accept empty promises, and promises from others that we will always have cheap power. All we have to do is accept that once again, the debt for Ontario hydro will sky rocket. Who exactly will have to pay down that debt again. Pay for hydro from this pocket, or pay for the Hydro debt costs from your other pocket. We are all going to have to pay folks. We don't have to like it, but it doesn't change the reality.

5/17/2011 10:26:54 AM
tiredofit says:
Lori,

For starters, the group’s membership isn’t published, nor should it be. Those on the core group have made their names public, check their website. That’s their choice and in some cases has caused individuals personal harassment, yet they still press on.

Funding: they get their funding by personal/private donations from the residents of Thunder Bay and surrounding areas, a good chunk of those individuals are from parts of the city which was evident last night. No public funding is made available to them, nor would they accept it. They do receive some assistance from Wind Concerns Ontario, who like us, don’t accept donations from questionable sources.

You stated that 30 billion is required over the next twenty years, that approximately what the province will pay out to about 15-20 of the wind farm developers. That’s money that should be redirected to upgrading the infrastructure first and foremost. No one is arguing that point. While the Liberals hand out billions to a few private companies and pays millions to US and Quebec to take our excess power, which is only going to get worse as more and more of these farms come on line. That’s your money and mine.

It would actually be cheaper and more cost effective in the long run to covert the coal plants to bio-mass and or natural gas. Wind and solar are a good addition, but not this way and not the way the province is cramming it through.

The Ministry of Environment is considering allowing the Section 17 of the Protected Species act to be ignored and these developers will be allowed to kill/harm endangered species. I’d like you to personally call them and ask if you can do it and what the fine would be if you were to do so (I believe it’s in the millions.

If you want to talk about empty promises, let’s look at the liberals… this list is long, (health care taxes etc.. etc..) but that’s for another day.
5/17/2011 11:49:03 AM
hockeyskates says:
Lori, is there any more room on the fence or do you want to sit on it all by yourself? You remind me of our local MPPs. They support the Green Energy Plan in Toronto and pretend to oppose it in Thunder Bay.
5/17/2011 11:54:16 AM
tudor says:
hockeyskates, I am confused by your comment. why is it not possible to support the green energy plan but be against this deal. I do not like this deal. I do not like this plan and I do not like the location or anything the city negotiated. But I do support green energy. Not sure what your point is here.
5/17/2011 9:04:52 PM
Pandora says:
When I see comments in support of the INDUSTRIAL WIND TURBINE Project I realize people still do not understand the economics of what would be the biggest hike in hydro anyone has ever seen.
All I can say is, thank goodness for the NIMBY, People you have to be paying attention.
5/17/2011 10:48:30 AM
MarathonLogger says:
How do you figure wind projects will be "the biggest hike in hydro anyone has ever seen"?

Wind power would receive 13.5 cents per kWh, and by the way, locked in at that rate for 20 years, but would qualify for an inflation escalation indexed to the ontario CPI.

Waterpower projects receive from 13.1 cents per kWh for under 10 MW projects, and 12.2 cents per kWh for over 10MW, but under 50 MW projects. These are 40 year contracts, again, indexed to inflation, but also receive a 35% bonus for power produced during peak hours. Consequently, they also lose 10% in off-peak hours.

The solar parks at the airport and FWFN will receive 44.3 cents per kWh. The small homeowner solar projects receive from 64.2 cents to 80.2 cents per kWh, and are not indexed to inflation at all over the 20 years.

Wind projects are quite competitive with water. Certainly 50 year old hydro dams are producing cheaper power, but they won't last forever, and with upgrades, or rebuilding comes new, and more current cost expenditures. I'd like to see what the KBFalls dam would cost to completely rebuild these days, compared to 1906. Try producing 3 cent power when concrete, rebar, construction supplies, wages, equipment, et al, are probably 25+ times what it was when that facility was originally built.

If i recall there was a recent story in the media, mentioning it will take 30 billion to bring the Canadian grid up to snuff over the next decades. I imagine that's not so much new power production, but maintenance on long aging infrastructure.
5/17/2011 11:31:59 AM
Logical says:
Lori:

The biggest concern I have is: they are putting this right next to an area full of young children. Nor Westerview School and Rural Roots Daycare center is right near the sites. Now, I am concerned with the fact that Horizion has already applied for up to around 80 MEGA watt project. They will need high power transmission lines for this. Not the normal wooden pole 24KV line that they told me they were going to use in phase 1.

Here is some info for you to digest:

Over the past 35 years research has been carried out on the health effects of living close to these high power transmission lines. There is an international consensus that living near (within 600 meters) high power transmission lines raises the risks of childhood leukemia. Some studies have also found increased risk of childhood brain cancer and lymphoma. The studies indicate that the closer children are to these power lines, the higher the risk. The risk increase is tremendous: some studies report that living in close proximity to high power transmission lines increases the risk of childhood leukemia 170%, the risk of childhood brain cancer increases up to 190%, the risk of childhood lymphoma increased up to 250% greater than controls (children not living close to these high power lines).
The Public Service Commission of Maryland has commissioned ongoing Status Reports on Investigations of Potential Human Health Effects Associated with Power Frequency Electric and Magnetic Fields (EMF). The most recent report is found at: , it is an excellent resource for current studies and information on the issue.
It is worth noting that: The State of Maryland has taken the following action in regards to EMF:
“During recent transmission line licensing cases, PPRP has been recommending that utilities present calculated field strengths in the application and follow-up with actual field measurements following construction of the new facility.”

In the most recent status report, the authors state the following in their conclusions:

“Research on ELF fields has been performed for more than two decades, and the methodology and quality of studies have improved over time. Studies have consistently shown increased risk for childhood leukemia associated with ELF magnetic fields”.
5/17/2011 11:09:05 AM
bluejay says:
Whats really funny about this group is they are misrepresenting what the two local mpps can do. The city got us into this mess and the city alone, the project is now going through the environmental assessment which is done by the province. However what this group doesn't tell anyone is that if it was found that the results of the assessment were affected for political reasons that would be illegal and the two local reps could be on the hook and face legal consequences for that interference.
Now as for the people behind this protest apparently the owner of loch lomand ski hill was initially trying to be part of this project with horizon and when that fell through all of the sudden his was wife was leading the charge to have this stopped. So I guess my question would be to tbnewswatch, how come no reporter has asked this group about the the legal ramifications the two local reps would face if they influenced the environmental report, and also about who exactly was trying to do business with these people in the begining.
The simple fact is the city got us into this mess and that is where the blame lies if this project goes through.
5/17/2011 12:10:41 PM
treesrgood says:
So, our MPP's are scared of the big bad wolf, Horizon's Zwig, too? Is that what your saying? Is it not the job of Councilors and MPP's to stand up for their people?
5/17/2011 4:26:16 PM
Sandwiches1123 says:
I'd like to talk about the comments made by Gary Armstrong. He's a "retired" former Abitibi-Bowater employee. That would likely make him a senior or part of the "Silver Tsunami" that Rebecca Johnson talked about at the May 9th Council meeting. So Rebecca, I ask you this: "Who exactly are you trying to help with your votes on issues?" You voted to do the study and look at how to sell one or more of the municipal golf courses. Golfing happens to be a sport that many seniors enjoy. In fact, when the study results are published, I hope it shows you that the average age of golfers using our public courses are over 55 and that a vast majority of the members are aged 55 to 75. Now you also voted in favour of the Wind Farm, which has the potential to drive this retired person and his tax dollars from the city. How many more out there are like Mr. Armstrong? Rebecca, how can you continue to talk out of the side of your face without being deposed from Council? I realize this is not just Rebecca's issue, but the issue of several Councilors.

The problem I have with Council is that the City needs to build its population but Administration and the elected officials representing the taxpaying (and salary paying) citizens do not look out for the best interest of the City. The only way that anyone will be able to afford to live in this City is if they work for the public service. That essentially creates a De Facto state of socialism in this City. Is this present council willing to move this city towards communism?
5/17/2011 12:19:07 PM
T_BAY says:
1. Claiming that the MPPs are going to be held accountable on election day by the 200 people that oppose this project is naive.

2. Laforet claims thunder bay does not want this project. Claiming 200 people represent the veiws of thunder bay is a new kind of arrogance.

3. The City wants this project. they make money by renting the land and are not responsible for de-commissioning.

4. Claiming environmental impact is a reason to not go ahead with this project is simply ignorant as the alternative is to continue to be the province's dirtiest energy producer by burning coal

People in this city need to wake up and put the good of the community before themselves
5/17/2011 1:41:54 PM
67mike says:
to T_Bay:

1) Anyone who pays Hydro bills in Ontario....should vote against the Liberal party. They are the reason our rates have doubled and will double again soon!!!! By the way: apparently the Ontario hydro customers have already paid off the "debt", yet we keep being charged the "debt retirement" amount....seems no one knows where this money has actually gone?!? (according to information at the meeting).

2) The only citizens in Thunder Bay who want this project are those who are ignorant to the facts, or just plain ignorant.

3) You are joking, right? TB hydro is GOING TO HAVE TO PAY MILLIONS!!!! to hook up this monster project...how does the $200,000 per year for 17,000 acres equate to a good deal?

4) Ever hear of HydroElectric generation? These water powered plants are Green, and provide us with a surplus of power at present! Get the facts, you obviously do not have a clue.
5/17/2011 3:44:01 PM
panzerIV says:
Hydro shouldn't be the main focus of voting for or against a party. You should base it on which party you feel represents the wants and needs that you would like and which party represents you the best.

Hydro will continue to increase because much of the infrastructure is old and needs updating.

"The sector is expected to invest $293.8 billion from 2010 to 2030 to maintain existing assets and meet market growth."

Much of the money they are talking about is government money a.k.a taxpayers dollars. So that reason, wage increases, inflation are the reason your costs have gone up. The previous conservative government lied to consumers by putting a freeze on the price and passing the torch off to another government.

Hydroelectric is good but it creates problems with flooding land, there is also reconstruction costs and the biggest problem is the silt that collects behind the dam, over time causing them to be less effective. So while it is good it also has expensive side effects.
5/17/2011 7:49:58 PM
Me n My Opinion says:
I've stayed away from commenting on this whole issue for one main reason - I don't know much about it. I don't have the time or energy to run around in circles. On one side there are "experts" stating the pros of it, and on the other side there are "experts" stating the cons of it. Somewhere there are experts who are wrong. Who am i to think I'd be right?

What I do know though, is that the group members often contradict themselves. In one post they will say it has to do with economics and the cost of providing hydro, and then in a further post the same person will say that if the turbines were just moved back a bit, then the protests would go away. So which is it? It appears to me that you're worried about the view from your deck and are using every avenue available to make a case against the project in order to preserve your nice view.

Another thing I know is that energy catastrophies like the Gulf of Mexico and Japan happen. How many of those do we need before we realize we have to do something with our entire way of thinking when it comes to energy production and comsumption. And Northern Ontario is going to become the dumping ground for all the waste. We have small earthquakes around here every once in a while - what could the consequences of that be?

And one last thing, with respect to the cost of producing energy with the newer technology. Like any technology, as the product gets refined, and as the market increases, prices start to come down. But someone has to start making those initial investments, sucking up the costs, and allowing that money to be reinvested back into making the technology better. It wasn't very many years ago that I saw my first Plasma TV at the Future Shop. It was 42" and priced just under fifteen thousand dollars. Thankfully some people saw the value in having them, spent the money, and allowed the prices to eventually come down. Same thing with all technology. Unfortunately someone has to take the leap, and in the case of energy, it's going to be government - you and me. But someone has to in order to reduce our dependency on non renewable sources.
5/17/2011 3:48:57 PM
lori says:
me n my opinion, how stupid can you be. You are using logic and common sense to debate an issue when emotion and unsupported statements are the order of the day for some.

Hockeyskates, not sure what fence you were referring to. Don't like the project. Never have, never will. Don't mind the concept of windmills nor windfarms. Don't think the location was good, nor was the deal by the city any good. Can't be much clearer.

Tiredofit, no matter what facts are presented you will find a way to spin them. Now you agree about the 30 Billion when you disagreed a few weeks back when I presented it. As for the funding for this group, then you can tell us without reservation that no funding to going to this group from the coal suppliers or natural gas suppliers. Yes people can choose not to have their names associated with this but when someone from out of town comes here to tell me that something is bad, my radar starts going off.

This government is leaps and bounds ahead of other provinces in getting going on producing new supplies. It may cost them seats and maybe even government but it seems to be the right thing to do. But why reward a government doing the right thing regardless of the political consequences.

Logical---- I don't know for sure but I think you might be right with the transmission lines. I don't see how windmills change those issues as power is still being transmitted, but the science at the moment doesn't seem to support concerns about windmills. That doesn't mean I disagree with you, but at the moment how does the science of windfarms compare to the known problems with coal or even burning gas. I don't have that answer but if you do, I would love to read it.

And my last comment. Marathonlogger just put out some information about the costs and what the large energy producers are getting. Only the small producer is getting that 80c and as me n my opinion stated, someone has to get this industry started.

But all the people against this project. Prove the figures from marathonlogger wrong. Point out how he is not accurate and then we can have a discussion because until then, it is more of the same anti-everything.

I can understand why some people may not want this in their back yard. I get the concerns people might have of the view of the norwesters even though I am okay with it. But some of this opposition seems a little made up to me.

Bad deal, bad location, bad terms and the decommissioning costs only have 20 grand a windmill. Having said all of that, the concept of generating power from windmills is not bad and should be applauded in my view.

5/17/2011 7:23:04 PM
MarathonLogger says:
Lori, i'll post the links that show where i got my info from, right from the source.

They can't disprove it, because it's all in black and white.

Windpower facts -

Waterpower facts -

Solar power facts -

Bio energy facts -
5/18/2011 5:51:25 PM
tiredofit says:
If you do you homework propertly and present the fact that those are the latest revised numbers/rates, this project and a large number of FIT projects will be paid out under the older system which is considerably higher cost to the general public. We're not all millionaries like some who can afford the pay these insane rates.

5/20/2011 7:07:22 AM
treesrgood says:
Your first line is all I need to read -- You don't know much about the issue -- PLEASE stop with the "gulf oil, global warming, climate change, technology etc. etc. ......easter bunny," This project is wrong in the wrong location; we've studied this for over 2 years.... You don't know what you don't know because you haven't studied the topic!
5/17/2011 9:08:09 PM
Me n My Opinion says:
I said nothing about climate change, global warming, or the Easter Bunny for that matter. Aside from the Easter Bunny, I think those are all terms that are over-rated. There is definitely some merit to them, but there are way too many people taking them to extremes. I drive a full sized truck to tow my toys with, I recycle but not faithfully, I compost but not completely. I'm conscious of the environment, and try to make decisions that are responsible, but am by no means a tree hugger.

Instead, I want safer energy sources. If green is a by-product of that, then all the better. If a windmill falls over, there are not far reaching consequences like there are if a nuclear reactor is compromised, or if an oil well is destroyed.

I am neither for or against this particular project, but am leaning toward supporting it. My whole point is that at some time before too many generations pass, we have to change our sources of energy. The fact that the largest (I didn't say all) group of opposers to this project are Neebing residents tells me the motivation is personal to them. If not, by way of their arguments, these same people would be lobbying just as hard if the project were happening in Current River. I find that hard to believe. The tactics being used are to save the view for Neebing residents.
5/18/2011 2:10:17 PM
lori says:
and that is how you refute his posting. By telling him he is wrong. How intelligent of you. Try proving his facts and figures wrong. We all agree that the project is bad, bad location etc. We all get that. But it is a signed contract between a private company Horizon and the city. Holding our breath and pretending it isn't so won't change it.

when Horizon came calling, all the city had to do is say no thanks, and all of this doesn't happen. All they had to do, was do their homework and none of this happens. Nothing in the Green Energy Act, the Liberal Government, the Premier, or the tooth fairy made our city council do this deal. A city council that was made up of Liberal, Conservatives and NDP members. They blew it and we are eating it. That doesn't mean that some people still can't question the legitimacy of things being said by those still trying to oppose it.
5/18/2011 2:53:52 PM
tdub says:
OMG!!! Things that are public, commercial or industrial must be terrifying. You gotta run far far away from it. The only way to stop this is to engage in doom mongering, cherry picking and claim that everyone else is misinformed. If the Nuclear industry told you that infrasound from Wind Turbines would melt your internal organs would you believe them? What if the Coal Industry said that you’re resale would drop by 80%? What if they called themselves a “grass roots” organization?
5/17/2011 5:02:29 PM
bluejay says:
67mike

my hydro bill is always under 300 which i dont consider to be too bad. I'm not sure if you've been paying attention to whats been going on in this town the last 8 years but compare it to the 8 before that and you'd have no choice but to change your vote
5/17/2011 5:08:37 PM
wattif says:
At Least the complainers against Flying J Truck Stop are quiet. And they didn't know what they were talking about. Guess the group in the south are much the same. COnstruct anything anywhere "BUT MY BACK YARD" .. Boo Hoo. It's life kids. GROW UP .. ..
5/17/2011 6:33:00 PM
ThunderResident says:
Wind is evil. All we need is coal, nuclear and gas. We have at least another 50-100yrs to burn it all off. That's plenty of time. Let the future generation deal with the problems of the future. People say wind turbines and homes/nature don't mix. How about coal or nuclear, do they mix? Maybe we should get rid of electricity altogether and settle this threat once and for all, step back a hundred years..
Anyways, It's sad how my neighbors in TB will complain about every new development project. This has nothing to do with Ontario policy or the City or the environment. It's all about sticking to the good old ways. And senseless fear. I will now go enjoy nature while it's still here.
5/18/2011 12:36:35 AM
Dan Fiorito says:
For those who don’t know me, I volunteer and manage/moderate the savethenorwesters.com website for the NMEPC. (Northwestern Escarpment Protection Committee)

While I read all of the comments on the TBNewsWatch website, there seems to be people who consistently state we are always contradicting ourselves. Our policy is, the core group, myself included, generally refrain from making comments on these websites. Comments made on these types of sites are not from the NMEPC, rather by individuals who wish to share their opinions. Some have hinted they are members and some comments indicate they are. Any information we feel is important to share, we, as a group, will do so on the NMEPC website, www.savethenorwesters.com or you can visit the Wind Concerns Ontario site at www.windconcernsontario.org.

Personally I enjoy reading some of the misconceptions the general public has about Wind Power, the Green Energy Act as well as a host of other related topics. As for those comments in favor of our fight, we appreciate everything they do and say, while some comments may not reflect our overall philosophy, they are doing their best and we salute them.

The thing I find funny is, they never, with the exception of a few, come to our site and leave comments or request information. We are a very open and transparent group of individuals, if we hold back any information, it usually based on the advice of our lawyers or WCO (Wind Concerns Ontario).


Dan Fiorito
NMEPC Site Moderator
5/18/2011 6:53:19 AM
Me n My Opinion says:
But Dan, don't you think that comments made outside of a controlled environment are a lot more telling? According to you, we should be paying attention to the official committee line. Doesn't that sound a little autocratic? It supports my point 100%. It must be frustrating for you when you only want to tell us certain things, present certain spins, and then someone has the nerve to go out and say what they actually think. To me, that doesn't sound transparent. It seems selective and calculated in order to do whatever you have to do to advance your cause.
5/18/2011 1:47:35 PM
Dan Fiorito says:
Hi,
Thanks for the response, we feel that comments are those of a personal nature, and as such we can't agree/disagree with all of them.

When we decided to post information on the site, it's based on a number of things, usually around the groups core beliefs pertaining to this subject (Horizon, REA process and the GEA). There's lot of comment these individuals make which pertains to other forms of electricity. While personally I think solar is a fantastic alternative, as are Turbines, and several other alternative sources, these are not what we are fighting about.

I'd be more than happy to continue this on the groups website.
5/19/2011 1:26:05 PM
fan says:
Mr.Fiorito, I did visit the site you identified in your post; interesting reading.
I have been one of the many undecideds until last week when I listened to: Mike Crawley, CBC News Posted: May 13, 2011 6:45 AM ET Ont. green project may kill endangered species- “Gilead Resources, Commons A Toronto-based wind power company, would have the legal right to kill the two species — if the province approves the proposal. The company is applying for a permit that would allow it to "kill, harm and harass" the Blanding's turtle and the whippoorwill."
Sort of telling isn't is? If the wind folks are all about kill, harm, harass indigenous species, then what's next?

5/19/2011 11:06:16 AM
Dan Fiorito says:
It is really sad that the province is even considering this action.

For fun, I called the MNR and asked what would happen it I happened to kill a Falcon on purpose, let's just say it's pretty darn expensive and I could spend a bit of time behind bars. But, when it's in the name of business, well, that's a different story I guess.

5/19/2011 1:31:18 PM
fan says:
If approved, the children in the area identified, Prince Edward County, will never have the experience of listening to this beautiful bird song nor learn about this particular turtle species; makes me wonder what will be lost forever to the children of our Thunder Bay area if the wind farm becomes a reality; and how will we explain to them that we approved this loss because we needed to make money;
5/19/2011 4:16:57 PM
sam says:
Like me n my opinion says, it really is all about the view. This is the worst kind of NIMBYISM. The well educated people of neebing have become experts at fear mongering, I give them credit for that, they are doing a masterful job.

At the country market this past saturday two nice ladies were trying to gather signatures to oppose the wind farm by shouting out, the mountains are going to get blown up.

Like I have said several times, once the turbines are up after a while you will hardly notice them.
5/18/2011 9:15:20 AM
Dan Fiorito says:
Sam, if you would have asked the two ladies where they lived, you whould have been suprised to learn they are both from Port Arthur area of town and the table was their own idea and initiative.

Please feel free to visit our site or attend our monthly public meeting at South Neebing Community Centre the first Thursday of every month (thanks TBNewWatch for allowing the plug). In fact, I invite everyone out!
5/19/2011 1:35:50 PM
spooner19 says:
tiredofit says:Actually we just got a Robin's and we really like it, but thanks for trying.

Oh trust me Tim's will be there soon!
5/18/2011 9:36:56 AM
tiredofit says:
Lori:

RE: As for the funding for this group, then you can tell us without reservation that no funding to going to this group from the coal suppliers or natural gas suppliers.

Yes, I can say that the group does not and will not accept any funds from these groups.

RE:Yes people can choose not to have their names associated with this but when someone from out of town comes here to tell me that something is bad, my radar starts going off.

No one has say they didn't want to have their names associated, the NMEPC chooses not to publish the list. As for Mr. Laforet, I can honest say there is no one this province that knows more about this issue than him.

you know my stance the Liberal Party so let's not waste time there (I dedicated 30+ years and money to that party)
5/18/2011 10:21:56 AM
notamused says:
Business for business sake and damn anyone who questions it. What a concept, it's all right to call people "NIMBY"ists if they even ask what color will it be. And other the hand what about those that must have things left exactly the same. Your all a bunch of whiney, snot nosed, spoiled brats, whichever side of the issue you're on!
5/18/2011 12:16:39 PM
fan says:
notamused...So much for intelligent, focussed, feedback; in your angry blurt you neglect to offer solutions;
5/19/2011 11:45:57 AM
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